Federal case reload 308 hard to close bolt
- Thread starter Jsnake711
- Start date
With no case in the press, adjust your sizing die in the press so it nearly touches the shellholder with the ram all the way up. Then take one of those 3 brass that required extra bolt pressure to chamber. Lube the case and size it. Wipe the lube off the case and try it in the chamber again.
If it doesn't chamber with low bolt pressure, screw the die in another 1/4 turn. When you lube and size the case again, look at the gap between the shellholder and bottom of the die with the ram all the way up and the case still in the die. You'll typically a small gap. The amount of this gap represents the additional amount of die adjustment available to size a case.
Remove the case lube and try to chamber the case again. If it's still hard to close the bolt, you can repeat this process by screwing the die down in 1/8 to 1/4 turn increments until the case is sufficiently sized to chamber easily. In most instances the case will be sufficiently sized before you reach the adjustment point where the die touches the shellholder when sizing a case.
If you reach the point where the shellholder is touching the bottom of the die when sizing a case, and the case won't chamber easily after sizing, don't attempt to screw the die down further. All that will do is put unnecessary and excessive stress on the press.
Under most conditions, the above adjustment procedure will suitably size the cases.
If it doesn't chamber with low bolt pressure, screw the die in another 1/4 turn. When you lube and size the case again, look at the gap between the shellholder and bottom of the die with the ram all the way up and the case still in the die. You'll typically a small gap. The amount of this gap represents the additional amount of die adjustment available to size a case.
Remove the case lube and try to chamber the case again. If it's still hard to close the bolt, you can repeat this process by screwing the die down in 1/8 to 1/4 turn increments until the case is sufficiently sized to chamber easily. In most instances the case will be sufficiently sized before you reach the adjustment point where the die touches the shellholder when sizing a case.
If you reach the point where the shellholder is touching the bottom of the die when sizing a case, and the case won't chamber easily after sizing, don't attempt to screw the die down further. All that will do is put unnecessary and excessive stress on the press.
Under most conditions, the above adjustment procedure will suitably size the cases.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^
If you are using these in any way, shape, or form in a gas gun -- FULL LENGTH RESIZE* YOURSELF --
(die to contact +maybe 1/16 turn more to slightly cam-over/eliminate press spring)**
* Use a good case lube/like RCBS or similar.
** Do not fool with "bumping" with that AR.
Last edited:
I'm thinking Linestretcher is mixing up sizing die for seating die.
Mr.Guffey,
If i'm understanding your post correctly.
With support on the case walls, instead of "bumping the shoulder back" what actually happens is that your slightly increasing the shoulder angle by pushing the juncture of the neck/shoulder downwards.
But with the wall support it would be impossible to push the outside of the shoulder downwards.
Mr.Guffey,
If i'm understanding your post correctly.
With support on the case walls, instead of "bumping the shoulder back" what actually happens is that your slightly increasing the shoulder angle by pushing the juncture of the neck/shoulder downwards.
But with the wall support it would be impossible to push the outside of the shoulder downwards.
Isnake:
This will be a multiple part reply.It could be a simple answer,put you have been given some off-target advice.
That's all I needed to know. I asked about your SEATER die being in contact with the shellholder to establish whether you were inadvertently putting a heavy crimp on with no place for the crimp to go,so collapsing the shoulder Your answer tells me that s not the issue Your three turns makes no crimp Its a non-issue.
Done.
I think maybe post #29 confused the seater die we were talking about with the sizer die.
No,you did not back the sizer die off three turns.
From there,the herd stampeded into the bushes with 1/4 turn advice..
I quit reading and replying to Guffey.Let me guess,he told you its not possible to set the shoulder back.Whatever.The shoulder will stop at the shoulder in the die.It will hold very still there.You will actually move the case head closer to the shoulder.Unless you have a press where the die moves. Semantics can be all important,worthy of endless argument.I think that is the little secret he delights in playing with..I can't say for sure,because then he does not say.or he would no longer be the "only reloader" who knows.
So,enough there.Back to the trail,out of the weeds.
For some jobs,there are multiple tools and methods. Some are efficient and repeatable,some are trial and error.There may be multiple good approaches.
The 1/4 turn creepdown starts with "The brass don't fit" but an otherwise unknown value. 1 turn is 1/14 inch,or approx. .072 inch. Your eyeball calibrated 1/4 turn is about .018 in.Thats a more coarse adjustment than I want to use...and from an unknown start,I get an unknown finish.Next time,you start over with an unknown and move .018 at a time toward the unknown.
The method I use(Which is just one of a number of good methods) is to order a Wilson (Or Lyman,Dillon,etc)_ "Bushing cartridge headspace gauge" I hear the howls already. GASP! "Cartrdge headspace!" Sputteer. Lets all run off into the weeds and argue!Please,ignore it. That's what the manufacturer calls the tool. They can take it up with Wilson.
So now you have a gauge. A standard you can repeat to for as long as you have a rifle. With any brass. Its a bit like a chamber.It has a hole,to put the brass in.It as a shoulder to represent the shoulder "headspacing" datum for the case to stop against.I put the quote marks around "headspacing" to recognize the blasphemy I had just committed,but we were able to communicate.
At the mouth f the bushing will be a step.The lower part of the step represents the SAAMI minimum length for factory ammo that is suppsed to ft every proper rifle. The top surface of the die represents the max sized length for SAAMI factory ammo that shuld fit any proper rifle.
Now you have a known zone ,hi imit,low limit to resize to,A refinement,with just a little thought,you can use your calipers to measure over the case in the bushing,and get a comparative number,like (- .003 from max) .Now you can set up approx. to .001 of your ideal length every tme.And you can get back there 5 yrs later,with WW or Remington brass.
I'm making an estimate here.I'm not Armalite or an expert on the subject. I read Precision Shooting's "Handloading for Competition" or something like that. In a semi-auto,you want the rifle to fully lock up every time.I will GUESS you want about .004 head clearance in an AR-10 type rife.
This will be a multiple part reply.It could be a simple answer,put you have been given some off-target advice.
That's all I needed to know. I asked about your SEATER die being in contact with the shellholder to establish whether you were inadvertently putting a heavy crimp on with no place for the crimp to go,so collapsing the shoulder Your answer tells me that s not the issue Your three turns makes no crimp Its a non-issue.
Done.
I think maybe post #29 confused the seater die we were talking about with the sizer die.
No,you did not back the sizer die off three turns.
From there,the herd stampeded into the bushes with 1/4 turn advice..
I quit reading and replying to Guffey.Let me guess,he told you its not possible to set the shoulder back.Whatever.The shoulder will stop at the shoulder in the die.It will hold very still there.You will actually move the case head closer to the shoulder.Unless you have a press where the die moves. Semantics can be all important,worthy of endless argument.I think that is the little secret he delights in playing with..I can't say for sure,because then he does not say.or he would no longer be the "only reloader" who knows.
So,enough there.Back to the trail,out of the weeds.
For some jobs,there are multiple tools and methods. Some are efficient and repeatable,some are trial and error.There may be multiple good approaches.
The 1/4 turn creepdown starts with "The brass don't fit" but an otherwise unknown value. 1 turn is 1/14 inch,or approx. .072 inch. Your eyeball calibrated 1/4 turn is about .018 in.Thats a more coarse adjustment than I want to use...and from an unknown start,I get an unknown finish.Next time,you start over with an unknown and move .018 at a time toward the unknown.
The method I use(Which is just one of a number of good methods) is to order a Wilson (Or Lyman,Dillon,etc)_ "Bushing cartridge headspace gauge" I hear the howls already. GASP! "Cartrdge headspace!" Sputteer. Lets all run off into the weeds and argue!Please,ignore it. That's what the manufacturer calls the tool. They can take it up with Wilson.
So now you have a gauge. A standard you can repeat to for as long as you have a rifle. With any brass. Its a bit like a chamber.It has a hole,to put the brass in.It as a shoulder to represent the shoulder "headspacing" datum for the case to stop against.I put the quote marks around "headspacing" to recognize the blasphemy I had just committed,but we were able to communicate.
At the mouth f the bushing will be a step.The lower part of the step represents the SAAMI minimum length for factory ammo that is suppsed to ft every proper rifle. The top surface of the die represents the max sized length for SAAMI factory ammo that shuld fit any proper rifle.
Now you have a known zone ,hi imit,low limit to resize to,A refinement,with just a little thought,you can use your calipers to measure over the case in the bushing,and get a comparative number,like (- .003 from max) .Now you can set up approx. to .001 of your ideal length every tme.And you can get back there 5 yrs later,with WW or Remington brass.
I'm making an estimate here.I'm not Armalite or an expert on the subject. I read Precision Shooting's "Handloading for Competition" or something like that. In a semi-auto,you want the rifle to fully lock up every time.I will GUESS you want about .004 head clearance in an AR-10 type rife.
Last edited:
LineStretcher
New member
Well, you've received a lot of advice. So let me ask, do you own any case gauges at all or are you just winging it. Not a good plan if you are. If you're counting on used brass (I hesitate to call it once fired) to be properly sized then as you are finding out, that's a hit and miss situation.
That said, go get yourself a .308 case gauge, read the instructions for using it and then read the instructions for setting up your sizing die. If you don't have a sizing die then get one. Even if you buy new brass you should full length size it for the first firing. Even top quality brass makers like Lapua recommend a full length resize to begin with.
As a side note, head space does not vary between bolt guns and semi auto. If that was the case there would be separate ammunition for each and there isn't. Proper head space should be between .002 and .004 thousandths with .005 being a no go unless you are checking a military rifle and that case .008 is your no go and you use a field gauge.
When I set up my precision dies, I start with the sizing die setup about 2 turns from the ram with a proper shell holder installed. I use precision shell holders that are in .002 height differences. I remove the ejector from my bolt and then I check the case for fit. I raise the case fully and then lower the die until it touches the shoulder then I lower the case and add 1/8 turn then tighten the lock ring. I size the case and then check it in the gauge and finally test it. If the bolt handle drops freely and the gauge shows it to be within spec's then I'm good. If the bolt handle does not drop freely I either go 1/16 turn on the die or change to the next taller (.002,004,etc.) shell plate holder and resize again. If the case is within spec according to the gauge, I try it in the rifle again. I repeat this process until the bolt closes freely and the case is still within min/max headspace according to the gauge.
If at any point I cannot get headspace correct and still be within specs according to the gauge, I discard that brass permanently. I hit the neck with a hammer so I never try to use it again and put it in the recycle box.
Last edited:
reynolds357
New member
There are plenty of ways to go about sizing brass. I have never found a case gauge to be very useful in loading for a particular rifle. The only way it would really tell you anything is if it were cut with the same reamer that cut your chamber. Why would you really care what a generic gauge says when tuning for a particular chamber? I have cut a few to go with my barrels, but I rarely ever use them.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Two ways to resolve that I know of.
Anneal em to their shoulder & resize FL. Then trim length to Minimum suggested or __Just Small Base resize so's to eliminate fat brass.
I reload & shoot nothing but some others first fires. Belonging to a gun club I retrieve only first fires for my personal use.
Again. All my rifle cartridges having Small Base resizer die availability from manufactures are resized with such tooling. 243_270_25-06_300 Sav_ 30-06.
S/B resized always gives the shooter the feel of cambering a new store bought cartridge. I prefer that store bought functioning VS having to force a fat cartridge into battery or lock-down.
BTW: A shooter should never have to force a cartridge into battery in order to get it to fire. Never >ever!
Anneal em to their shoulder & resize FL. Then trim length to Minimum suggested or __Just Small Base resize so's to eliminate fat brass.
I reload & shoot nothing but some others first fires. Belonging to a gun club I retrieve only first fires for my personal use.
Again. All my rifle cartridges having Small Base resizer die availability from manufactures are resized with such tooling. 243_270_25-06_300 Sav_ 30-06.
S/B resized always gives the shooter the feel of cambering a new store bought cartridge. I prefer that store bought functioning VS having to force a fat cartridge into battery or lock-down.
BTW: A shooter should never have to force a cartridge into battery in order to get it to fire. Never >ever!
Reynolds,we are not talking about a "plunk" gauge.There is absolutely no need to use the chambering reamer to make the bushing gauge. Nothing personal,but generally folks who give negative feedback for the bushing gauge don't understand what they do or do not do.First,they are not intended to hae a line to line diametrical fit.They are not for checking diameters or concentricity.
They perform xactly the same function as the Hornady "clamp to your calipers" datum bushing kit. They perform exactly the same function as the RCBS Precision mic. The hole has a simulated headspace datum diameter,it has a hole to hold the case normal to that reference datum,and the ground step gives SAAMI hi and low limits for datum to case head lengths.If you just want to make SAAMI spec reloads,keep it between the steps.If you want a specific head clearance ,the SAAMI datum reference diameter is a constant.
If you determine your sizing die is setting the shoulder back .004 for your AR-10 from brass fired in that rifle* ,and IF you verify that translates to .004 head clearanceYou may then establish that brass head sits .003 (any number that is true) below the top of the gauge. From that point on,you can use that gauge to check Lapua,Remington,Lake city,etc. It does not matter. Set your resize die to give you that same measurement in the gauge after sizing. Measurable,repeatable,consistant resizing. Why do we handload?
( * It is not necessarily true that fired brass from a semi auto rifle is an honest representation of zero head clearance chamber length brass.The brass CAN stretch longer due to residual pressure or other cycling factors.Setting the shoulder back .004 on brass fired in your rifle may not result in .004 head clearance)
From the max length of the bushing gauge,another constant,the handloader can repeat his die set up,and his case head to ref datum length,consitantly,every time for years. You cam measure with calipers over the case in the gage to a ref number you write with a sharpy in your die box. Like" - .003" I have a granite comparator stand with a post and a dial indicator. I zero the indicator on the hi limit end of the bushing gauge. Then I drop a brass in the gauge,and slide the case head under the indicator.I can check several samples to .0005 very efficiently. Another tool that would work just fne with a bushing gauge is a depth mic Simply mic from the hi limit to the case head.
The fact that a person has not yet developed the skills to se a tool is no reflection on the merit of the tool
You can give me a Stradivarius and I still cannot play a violin
I do know abut gauges and measuring tools,and inspecting parts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited:
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-blind-man-and-the-elephant/
The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool; the Wilson case gage is not a drop in gage. The Wilson case gage measures the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. The Wilson case gage measure the length of the case in two lengths, the short length determines minimum length or full length sized from the shoulder/datum to the case head. The long length measures the go-gage length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.
For 70 years Wilson has suggested the reloader use a straight edge when measuring the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. Problem; when and if the reloader reads the instructions they claim the case gage is a drop in gage
The Wilson case gage is designed to measure new over the counter factory cases, fired and sized cases meaning the gage was designed to measure the length of the case before and again after sizing.
Back to the straight edge; I use a straight edge be it a feeler gage and or a flat surface and I use a feeler gage.
And I make chamber gages, the chamber gage differs from the case gage. The Wilson case gage measures minimum length/full length sized case length and fired case length from the datum to the casa head. The chamber gage measures sized/minimum length cases.
The chamber gage is as confusing to use by the reloader as the Wilson case gage. Reloader do not know what to do with the gage's open end. I do not find the chamber gage confusing because I make them. The datum/shoulder determines where the case contacts the gage meaning that is where the length of the case is measure from. The measure 'to' is the open end.
And then there is the thumb nail; I do not use my thumb nail when measuring the length of the case from the datum to the open end of the gage. I use a straight edge and feeler gage, or a flat surface or a depth gage fashioned with a dial indicator. Wilson makes the dial indicator and case gage.
F. Guffey
The Wilson case gauge I got in 9mm is useless. Of all the brass mfg I have sized (must be 10 or more) it only works on one.
The rest it says are reject (by a lot) but the gun is perfectly happy with them (by pulling the barrel and ensuring that they seat all the way of course)
Obvious its bored to minimum not even average specs.
As its not real world its a waste. Caveat Emproer
The rest it says are reject (by a lot) but the gun is perfectly happy with them (by pulling the barrel and ensuring that they seat all the way of course)
Obvious its bored to minimum not even average specs.
As its not real world its a waste. Caveat Emproer
You will not believe how many years it took reloaders to understand the Sinclair/Hornady comparator was not a head space gage. It took as many years to convince reloaders how important it was to have an accurate datum. And then there was the verify thing. And then there was case head space
F. Guffey
I suggest you contact Wilson and complain; there is a chance they will send you another one or give you your money back and then there is a big chance all you need for your gage is the instructions.
I have know very few reloaders that have read the instructions that are included in the case gage box. The printed date on my instructions for the Wilson case gage go back to 1952.
My instructions suggest getting a straight edge. Wilson included a description of a straight edge. They did not mention 'the feeler gage' I always wondered how long would it take the reloader to think of the feeler gage. I believe I started out with a feeler gage and then combined it with the shell holder, die and gages.
F. Guffey
LineStretcher
New member
HiBC, you are correct. The thing most new reloaders don't do is to check their AR's head space with the ejector removed from the bolt. They drop the bolt and when it doesn't lock without added pressure they think that they don't have enough head space so they bump the shoulders back further resulting in way too much headspace.
All my rifles feel a little different whether it be a bolt gun or a semi auto so I still pull the ejectors when I'm setting headspace. Between my feel and my gauges I have good confidence that I'm in the sweet spot.
My buddy and I both reload (we're neighbors). He's the kind of reloader that racks out 100 rounds of .308 on his Dillon 650 in an hour and I'm the kind that takes 3 day's to rack out 50 rounds on my RCBS Ammo Master. I use my Dillon 650 much the same as he does but I don't consider it's ammo to be match grade and I don't see the point in reloading ammo for a match grade rifle that only meets plinking specs. We're both in our happy places when we go shooting so that's all that matters, right?
The OP has plenty of info to digest now and I think by now he's realizing he needs to take a much closer look at the importance of using proper reloading methods. I'm going to refrain from further advice at this point and wait to see if he posts some results.
All my rifles feel a little different whether it be a bolt gun or a semi auto so I still pull the ejectors when I'm setting headspace. Between my feel and my gauges I have good confidence that I'm in the sweet spot.
My buddy and I both reload (we're neighbors). He's the kind of reloader that racks out 100 rounds of .308 on his Dillon 650 in an hour and I'm the kind that takes 3 day's to rack out 50 rounds on my RCBS Ammo Master. I use my Dillon 650 much the same as he does but I don't consider it's ammo to be match grade and I don't see the point in reloading ammo for a match grade rifle that only meets plinking specs. We're both in our happy places when we go shooting so that's all that matters, right?
The OP has plenty of info to digest now and I think by now he's realizing he needs to take a much closer look at the importance of using proper reloading methods. I'm going to refrain from further advice at this point and wait to see if he posts some results.
Wow so much info. Just to clarify, I didn't size this brass. Although, the way I have been setting my sizing die by the directions was, ram all the way up, screw die in till it touches the shell holder and lock it down.
Next batch I resize I will definitely try this. Also these loads were fire a bolt gun. I did try them in thr ar 10 and the bolt closed with ease and extracted with ease.
And I will look at getting a case gauge as I don't have one, ands primarily load 308.
Next batch I resize I will definitely try this. Also these loads were fire a bolt gun. I did try them in thr ar 10 and the bolt closed with ease and extracted with ease.
And I will look at getting a case gauge as I don't have one, ands primarily load 308.
RC.: For the example you gave,9mm,I'd have to agree a bushing type headspace gauge is unnecessary. Its function is to gage high and low limit from case head to the headspacing datum feature,which is the case mouth.
Your calipers will do quite nicely. I'm not sure what you were expecting from the gauge.
Its a bit different with a bottleneck rimless rifle cartridge that headspaces on the shouder. The measurement is from the case head to a theoretical datum circle diameter resting on the case shoulder.
That's not as easy as the 9mm. The bushing die provides a simulated datum circle for the shoulder to rest on,and a high and low limit.
I find them quite useful.
Other methods that work are the Hornady/Stony point tool that attaches a bushing to a caliper jaw. The RCBS Precision mic is another fine tool that makes the same measurement.
Unclenick has described using a hardware store bushing for a circle to rest the cartridge shoulder on .With the calipers you can measure the change in length before and after sizing.
They all work. They will all make a "before sizing" and "After sizing" measurement .And they can all make a comparative measurement from a case compared to a master.
Which beats "It don't fit ,give it another quarter turn"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isnake 711: This link will take you to Brownells,and the Wilson case gauge. There is a similar Lyman on sale now for a little cheaper.
https://www.brownells.com/reloading...adspace-tools/wilson-case-gage-prod33287.aspx
Last edited:
reynolds357
New member
If we are talking about the same tool, I know how to use them. Very simple to use. Also, pretty pointless in my opinion. They are not completely accurate unless they perfectly match the chamber. The only way that can happen is if cut with the same reamer. I built a couple for my 30br when I built it and it's 3 spare barrels. I built one for my 6ppc before I turned it into a 6Br Norma.
The bushing cartridge gauge can be made perfectly well with a bored through hole the diameter of the SAAMI spec headspacing datum
Then a straight,non tapered counterbore,slip fit for the case head diameter,can be bored to the SAAMI spec max case head to datum depth.
All that is left is grinding in the low limit step. The only thing the gauge needs to do is rest the case shoulder on the datum diameter normal to the datum.. All other contact between the gauge is noise which may induce error.
Yes,the gauge is pretty simple and foolproof to use,if its properly designed.If the gauge tries to do more than it was designed to do,you have multiple variables in the result.
My career as a toolmaker included designing and building gauges to qualify military and aircraft parts to the GD+T specs on the print.
Nothing personal,but if you think the gauge needs to be a line to line fit with the body of the cartridge case,you don't really understand how the gauge works. Unclenick's hardware store bushing used with calipers has no chamber. The RCBS Precision mic has no chamber cut with "the" reamer.
Any of these methods might be used by a world class competition shooter.They work.
A quarter million dollar Co-ordinate Measuring Machine in a clean room has no chamber cut .It will use a contact point to touch the cartridge case on the datum locations only.
This gauge https://www.brownells.com/reloading...adspace-tools/wilson-case-gage-prod33287.aspx
Then a straight,non tapered counterbore,slip fit for the case head diameter,can be bored to the SAAMI spec max case head to datum depth.
All that is left is grinding in the low limit step. The only thing the gauge needs to do is rest the case shoulder on the datum diameter normal to the datum.. All other contact between the gauge is noise which may induce error.
Yes,the gauge is pretty simple and foolproof to use,if its properly designed.If the gauge tries to do more than it was designed to do,you have multiple variables in the result.
My career as a toolmaker included designing and building gauges to qualify military and aircraft parts to the GD+T specs on the print.
Nothing personal,but if you think the gauge needs to be a line to line fit with the body of the cartridge case,you don't really understand how the gauge works. Unclenick's hardware store bushing used with calipers has no chamber. The RCBS Precision mic has no chamber cut with "the" reamer.
Any of these methods might be used by a world class competition shooter.They work.
A quarter million dollar Co-ordinate Measuring Machine in a clean room has no chamber cut .It will use a contact point to touch the cartridge case on the datum locations only.
This gauge https://www.brownells.com/reloading...adspace-tools/wilson-case-gage-prod33287.aspx
reynolds357
New member
If you use the generic gauge, you may not actually measure the contact point that creates headspace. I am sure you have reamed barrels. I am sure you know the amount of error in most reamers. My point is you are measuring a spot that might not be "the spot". In a perfect world, the generic gauge works. In real world, it may or may not be accurate.