Cheapshooter
New member
5pins, keep up the excellent work with the ammo tests. Those who have been here on TFL for a long time get it, and appreciate your efforts.
Federal .40S&W 180gr HST in Clear Ballistics Gel.
- Thread starter 5pins
- Start date
Cheapshooter - written like a real internet warrior. Have fun with your jello. I'm sure you've found the magic bullet.
For the record, the FBI does a lot of testing, using various methods. The "jello" test is one of many. They don't look at a bullet pulled from a jello mold and tell themselves, "ha, there's are magic bullet." Even they realize it has very little to do with the objective of the fired round.
It's like going to the Dr. The first thing they do is take your body temp. But, I wouldn't call taking your body temperature a good method of determining malaria.
For the record, the FBI does a lot of testing, using various methods. The "jello" test is one of many. They don't look at a bullet pulled from a jello mold and tell themselves, "ha, there's are magic bullet." Even they realize it has very little to do with the objective of the fired round.
It's like going to the Dr. The first thing they do is take your body temp. But, I wouldn't call taking your body temperature a good method of determining malaria.
Sorry Brother, but you clearly need to get educated in this subject.
Gel has NEVER been intended to simulate a human target. It simply gives us a duplicatable way to compare one bullet against another. So the gel is made to a specific recipe, shot at a certain temp and the results are compared to other bullets shot into the same recipe at the same temp.
The “FBI protocol” has a number of intervening barriers place in the bullets path before impacting the get. Light clothing, heavy clothing, plywood, sheet metal, auto glass...
Again, This just gives us a way to see how those barriers effect the bullets ability to still expand after passing thru them.
Only designed to give us an apples to apples comparison of performance. NOT show what will happen when a bulet passes through all the varies structures of the human body
I've always read, for quite some time now, that it's the CLOSEST we have, in getting a good idea, on how a bullet will perform in the human body.
Unfortunately, although that is commonly expoused on the interweb, the fact is tissue varies SO MUCH between different areas of the body and between individuals ( think about the difference in composition of the thigh of a olympic speed skater and a 300lb couch potato) there is no realistic tissue simulator.
So. We do the best we can and make a scientific medium to compare results. Its interesting to note the FBI test is mainly concerned with DEPTH OF PENETRATION after passing through barriers.
BTW... 3 layers of denim is what would need to be passed through if a side shot was taken. Outside arm, inside arm, torso...all need to be punched through tonget into the chest cavity. Remember the Miami/Dade shooting these tests were a result of. Platt took that 9mm round thrught the arm and into the chest...hence the FBI’s minimum penetration standard AFTER passing through barriers.
You choose your ammo based on poling individual law enforcement officers on what they are issued. Ammo issued by their department, based on testing conducted by their department or the FBI, and then declare,
"The "gel-tests" will go down as the dumbest tests to determine the effectiveness of a pistol bullet to stop a human target from it's intended desire. "
But you pick ammo from the advice of people who have no idea why they carry the ammo they carry.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE
Please read 1991-Vol1No1 page 10 of the IWBA Ballistics Review.
"Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain
Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human
Tissue and Tissue Simulant"
Also, read 1998-Vol3No3 page 12
"IMPROVED HANDGUN
AMMUNITION"
This will give insight on four layers of denim test.
"The "gel-tests" will go down as the dumbest tests to determine the effectiveness of a pistol bullet to stop a human target from it's intended desire. "
But you pick ammo from the advice of people who have no idea why they carry the ammo they carry.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE
Please read 1991-Vol1No1 page 10 of the IWBA Ballistics Review.
"Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain
Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human
Tissue and Tissue Simulant"
Also, read 1998-Vol3No3 page 12
"IMPROVED HANDGUN
AMMUNITION"
This will give insight on four layers of denim test.
Cheapshooter
New member
[QUOTEYou choose your ammo based on poling individual law enforcement officers on what they are issued. Ammo issued by their department, based on testing conducted by their department or the FBI, and then declare,
"The "gel-tests" will go down as the dumbest tests to determine the effectiveness of a pistol bullet to stop a human target from it's intended desire. "
But you pick ammo from the advice of people who have no idea why they carry the ammo they carry.][/QUOTE]
LOL! Yup, don't do any research on bullet performance, adequate penetration, over penetration, bullet failure. Don't do your own checking to see if the ammo you choose actually works in your gun, or is accurate. Just get what the politicians have bought the local LE because it was the cheapest they could find!
"The "gel-tests" will go down as the dumbest tests to determine the effectiveness of a pistol bullet to stop a human target from it's intended desire. "
But you pick ammo from the advice of people who have no idea why they carry the ammo they carry.][/QUOTE]
LOL! Yup, don't do any research on bullet performance, adequate penetration, over penetration, bullet failure. Don't do your own checking to see if the ammo you choose actually works in your gun, or is accurate. Just get what the politicians have bought the local LE because it was the cheapest they could find!
5pins - Cheapshooter- It's comical to watch you guys do google searches and draw conclusions never stated to justify being jello believers.
Fact - there is NO substrate that can approximate, air, bone, liquid and tissue simultaneously.
Fact - there is NO place on the human body that is monolithic or homogenous for 14-20" unless you're obese
Fact - nobody wears 4 layers of denim - further evidence of how outdated the test really is
Fact - because of the above, jello testing will not give any clue as to how a bullet will perform hitting a human body, how it expands, how much it penetrates.
Yes, it will go down as being as worthless as shooting into water and wet newsprints.
Maybe next time you can make the jello in cherry flavor?
Fact - there is NO substrate that can approximate, air, bone, liquid and tissue simultaneously.
Fact - there is NO place on the human body that is monolithic or homogenous for 14-20" unless you're obese
Fact - nobody wears 4 layers of denim - further evidence of how outdated the test really is
Fact - because of the above, jello testing will not give any clue as to how a bullet will perform hitting a human body, how it expands, how much it penetrates.
Yes, it will go down as being as worthless as shooting into water and wet newsprints.
Maybe next time you can make the jello in cherry flavor?
Do you know of anything that would be better?
No, he doesn't. He has no "facts" with any support just snarky remarks.
It's like I said earlier.
I think he proves my point.
I don't mind respectful discussion and disagreement but if someone is going to make statements of fact then it should be backed up with facts, not flippant opinions.
I'm stepping out of this discussion.
Cheapshooter
New member
Some people just can not comprehend what they read, or just want to appear like a stubborn fool.
NOBODY claimed ballistic gel was in ANY WAY the same as a human body. Neither is chunks of a dead pig.
What ballistic gel IS is a consistent, reliable test media used by testing laboratories world wide.
But hey, what's a problematic little thing like FACT have to do with an antiquitous opinion?
NOBODY claimed ballistic gel was in ANY WAY the same as a human body. Neither is chunks of a dead pig.
What ballistic gel IS is a consistent, reliable test media used by testing laboratories world wide.
But hey, what's a problematic little thing like FACT have to do with an antiquitous opinion?
In The Ten Ring
New member
Wasn't the .45 ACP developed by shooting cows and cadavers?
Back in the early 2000's, I spent about 2 hours at a gun range going through every 9mm Parabellum they had until I found a brand that grouped well and hit to point of aim. I found that with PMC El Dorado. That is what I carried in that weapon and I carried it for years. Fast forward to 2012 and youtube. I found tn9outdoors videos on gel tests and
that round didn't expand at all. I stopped carrying it immediately.
Back in the early 2000's, I spent about 2 hours at a gun range going through every 9mm Parabellum they had until I found a brand that grouped well and hit to point of aim. I found that with PMC El Dorado. That is what I carried in that weapon and I carried it for years. Fast forward to 2012 and youtube. I found tn9outdoors videos on gel tests and
that round didn't expand at all. I stopped carrying it immediately.t4terrific
New member
t4terrific
New member
There you have it.
It’s easy to find problems. Solutions take work and thought.
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