Fed sniper granted imunity.......open season

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Hard Ball.....take your finger off the trigger. ;)

jimmy said exactly what I was thinking....great minds think alike. :)

No...I certainly don't hate local LEO's actually just the opposite, but I dont like FEDERAL LEO's.

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
Nyterunner, I'm trying to hold my temper here. If your comment 'drug-induced haze' is intended to imply that I'm a doper, then I take offense, strong offense at your statement.

If you believe that only dopers can take issue with your fascist War on Drugs, then you delude yourself.

Do I understand you correctly, sir?
 
Not so, Oleg.

This was part of the Branch Davidian lawsuit against the government. Horiuchi was named as a separate party and as an individual. He would have had to pay out of his own pocket.

I remain amazed at our fellow Americans. First Ruby Ridge, and then Waco, and not many folks really got upset. But let John Rocker utter some words about foreigners, homosexuals, and unwed mothers, and off comes the roof.

Unbelieveable.

But it can't happen here, right...?
 
I sure would like to see the courts rational for this one!! I do know that in a "National" Emergiancy all Fedrals and state agiencies who work under there orderes are and have been IMMUNE from prosicution...no matter what. 9 They have the power to enslave, execute, confinscate food wepons property Ect....this was origionaly ment for a NUCLEAR WAR under Executive Order 11490...the problem is the launguage is very loose as to what constitutes a "National Emergiancy". I guess in the feds eyes if you have to bring in Tanks to crush dissenters on their own land-that constitutes a "national Emergiancy" :rolleyes:
 
Jeff and Co.,

As a LEO in the Military my perspective may be a bit different. I am the first to say that misconduct should be punished, but to compare a sniper who took a shot at an armed man, missed and killed a woman who was behind a door (obscured), and then compare him to Adolf, Josef, and the others is absurd.

The rules of engagement were screwed up, no doubt, and the FBI admits it, but let's not become like the anti-gunners and simply throw emotional epithets around. In the eyes of the anti's all guns are evil and all shooters are gun-nuts. Mistakes were made, but I do not believe that Vicki Weaver was intentionally killed with malice (the definition of murder).

There are always two sides to every story, and the media is rarely 100% accurate, nor is the information in anti-government videos, etc. The truth is usually somewhere in between.

So please stop comparing Horiuchi to Calley, Hitler, and Stalin. Though, I am not defending him, I am also able to discern emotional exaggeration from rational analyses.

Regards,

Chuck
 
Not sure if Vicky was killed maliciously or accidentally. However, using loudspeakers to taunt the survivors with snide remarks about their dead family member makes me think that the killing was murder rather than an accident.
 
Chuck,

I don't think you can rationally say that the truth is inbetween in the Ruby Ridge case. The FBI was slapped down so handily in the trial because they were clearly lying and hiding evidence. That is inexcusable.

While Horiuchi was probably lied to, he still was willing to execute people who had not fired a shot at anyone, Randy Weaver for instance, and whose son had just been shot in the back. It is extremely scary to think that there are federal agents who are simply willing to go and kill people without knowing what crime has been committed and when they themselves are clearly not in danger. Remember Horiuchi shot Weaver in the back on his own property in a rural area where Weaver was threatening no one.
 
Roybean, you are right. I recall reading an article that the 9th Circuit has been reversed by the Supreme Ct. something like 29 of the last 32 times a case from there has made it to the Supremes. Hopefully, cert will be granted here as well.
 
Chuck, YES, there are two sides to every story, and that's precisely why he should get his day in court - his criminal trial for manslaughter will be his day in court. What this ruling does is PREVENT anyone's day in court, and prevent the truth to come out by evidence offered to a jury as to his guilt or innocense. If he's not guilty, then he'll be cleared.
 
One thing I would like everyone to think about, especially since someone brought up rationalism.

Maybe it's a symptom of how we are taught with "multiple choice" tests, that when you are presented with a bunch of answers (e.g. in a CNN survey) that one of them is necessarily correct.

Lon Horiuchi's worthlessness aside, I would like to present this situation as one of those.

The real problem here is that they were hunting down Weaver for a bulls**t victimless crime. The war on drugs is another example of bulls**t victimless crimes.

None of this would have happened if they were not trying to arrest Weaver for a non-crime (Short shotgun? Give me a break).

We should analyse this with regard to people being arrested for bulls**t crimes that should not be crimes.

When is the last time you heard of a burglar/thief/rapist holed up with his familiy armed against troops? It's just a different mindset, for starters they don't break out the trigger-happy JBTs for mere murderers and rapists (just people who commit REAL crimes like building a short shotgun - note my sarcasm). How many child-molesters lock themselves away for as long as Weaver did thinking "yeah, I know I did what I did; but g*d-da*n it I don't deserve to be arrested for it I'm going to hole up here until they go away because I'm just righteous - I killed/robbed/raped but I've explained it all to my family and they're behind me 100%". Noone has alleged (not even the FBI) that Randy Weaver is a REAL criminal - just that he cut down a shotgun, or something stupid like that.

I'm not the most eloquent person on this board; but I hope you all can see what I mean. If Lon Horiuchi was. . . . not who he was, he would probably resign - as would all the people involved in these sorts of things. But in focusing on whether or not he should be in jail, we avoid discussing what's really wrong.


That's my rant.
Battler.
 
So, I'm picturing Lon lying prone with his tactical Model 700 in either .308 or .300 Mag topped with a Leupold Mark 4 in 16X. He is a Federal sharpshooter who no doubt has gone through rigorous training and had plenty of practice. I'm seeing Lon watching the Weaver family trying to figure out just what is happening outside their home...through his 16X Leupold...Lon is relaxed, but yet excited.

Suddenly, he carefully picks his target (allegedly an armed aggressor), he carefully places the fine cross hairs across the bridge of his target's nose...breathes...and then gently squeezes his custom tailored 1.5 pound trigger. BOOOOOOM!

Are we to believe that Mrs. Weaver suddenly crossed the line of fire in the split second between rifle report and bullet impact, to be hit perfectly as if she was the intended target? Come now boys.

If you've ever been on the deliver's side of a custom long range tactical rifle, you'll realize that such a story (as reported) is complete and total fantasy. Now if Lon was using an MP5...maybe.
 
Hi all;

Umm, does anyone know what Agent Horiuchi's
shooting record was?

How many other "green lights" he had in his
career prior to Ruby Ridge, and how his
"average" stacks up against other law enforcement statistics in general for sniper-antisnipers ?

Is it just possible that he choked? That he
killed unintentionally? That he had never been in a green light situation before and royally screwed up? I honestly don't have any idea and the question is straight up.

I am suprised actually, I would have thought that after everything that has happened since Ruby Ridge, that the government would understand that "We The People" deserve our day in court. That Agent Horiuchi, innocent or guilty should be tried, as I, or you, or anyone else would be had a wrongful death occured at our hands.

The FBI has been trapped in lies many times over this issue. This whole thing is horribly shameful.

To Chuck Ames;

Dear Mr Ames, familiarise yourself with this incident in detail. There can be little doubt as to the maliciousness of the governments actions at Ruby Ridge. The entire incident was fabricated from the ground up and has every resonable appearance of entrapment. The Weavers were under seige by the armed agents of the federal government. It was the Weavers who lost blood and it went unanswered.

If there is ANYTHING to the governments posistion, let us hear it in court.

--paraphrase--
/to/
"compare him to Adolf, Josef, and the others is absurd."

In view of the Nuremburg "defense" it is not at all absurd. Not even a little bit. It is frightening.

Read your history.

dog3
Ex-military LEO
 
IMHO, the whole thing was not about the shotgun, it was about Weaver's refusal to snitch on his neighbors.

This scares me more than the idea of a certain kind of gun being illegal.
 
Yeah, he would not join a white supremacist group and spy on them.

I still think it's about the shotgun - without those stupid laws what could they entrap him on? Another problem with that law, just gives them a stupid thing to use against someone.

What could they use to entrap him otherwise? Put someone near him wearing a T-shirt saying "please mug me"? Tell him that his neighbours have lots of cool VCRs in their house? Suggest he murder someone, well, because it's cool?

Nope, it had to be either guns or planting dope.


Battler.
 
Chuck, I'm not going to get into the LEO/citizen argument. However, I have seen replays of the Weaver trial, and the door that Vicky Weaver was behind was a screen door. She was not obscured. Also, Lon Horiuchi was a member of the "quarter club," a group of snipers who could put five shots into a quarter at 200 yds. I'm not the greatest shot, but even if I "choke," I don't miss that bad.

What ticks me off even more about this is that this is the second time that the state of Idaho has attempted to try Horiuchi, and it's the second time the feds came in and took jurisdiction. If I follow the court's logic, a federal court could step into Arkansas and overturn Clinton's disbarrment because at the time of his testimony he was
on 24-hour duty as the President.

Dick

[This message has been edited by Monkeyleg (edited June 15, 2000).]
 
You're all kind of missing the point.

The standing order, which was ILLEGAL by any definition, was to shoot to kill any armed male outside the cabin. Kevin what's his name was running toward the cabin when Vicki was shot and supposedly Horiuchi was shooting at Kevin. The Feds were NOT under fire. They were NOT, under any ordinary LE rules of engagement permitted to fire at someone just running from one point to the next.

It didn't matter who he hit, JUST PULLING THE TRIGGER WAS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who got hit, Kevin or Vickie, didn't matter. Now the question becomes A) manslaughter or B) Murder (both Horiuchi and the person who gave the initial order).

As I said, I've never heard if anyone's taken credit for the order yet. Highly doubt anyone ever will.

I completely agree with Paul Revere's assesment. If Horiuchi did hit Weaver accidently then he's still guilty of negligent homocide.
 
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