Fearsome sound of a pump action shotgun being racked.

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Saab911

But more to the point, would the attackers you mention be scared away
when you simply rack the pump on your shotgun?

This is Pretoria, South Africa. He is a trained terrorist, you are a law abiding citizen. They come into your home, having the initiative. The AK's or 9mm's are cocked and aimed at you or your kids or your wife. Merely racking your pump shall have no intimidating result. If you do not shoot as a first action, they shall.

No. there is no reason for dramatics. Only immediate and hard and violent action.

The perpetrators, being who they are and from which principle they operate expects immediate surrender or an equal play of showmanship. They do not expect a hard and immediate counter attack. That you can only do if you are armed and only need to pull the trigger. My Winchester Defender is loaded with slugs and I can shoot it off the hip where I want to at 6-10 m. My double action revolver is in the small of my back and I need to only pull the trigger, no cocking and saying "OK boy, put you AK down and let me straighten you out."

Then, on top of this, when the police come to investigate the crime after you have shot and killed the main threat, they charge you with murder and lock you up until your innocence is proved. No kidding.
 
East Africa...

"We also try to take good care of our house staff (they have been with us for many years) and make sure we stay friendly and close with the neighbors".

Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?

That is the reason in SA households do not have house staff anymore.

I lived in Nairobi for a year and was robbed at gunpoint in my rented property. My "security guard" just happened to suddenly ask for leave for the weekend...
 
Springmom (rather nice, that!)

"...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence...."

Why does the USA have such a safe society? Why did South Africa used to have an even safer society?

Because of the love of guns, the general ownership, and the knowledge and skill of how to use them.

We are being disarmed at the moment with new and silly gun laws. Some of us still have our guns and go through the most unthinkable rigmarole to keep them licenced and in our posession. You live in a democratic country, we do not. Stick to your guns in every sense of the term.
 
springmom said:
Wildebees' post is a reminder of something I've read from Jeff White any number of times...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence. Even where I live, where home invasions are dismayingly common, they are NOTHING like what he describes.
Click to expand...

that is an incorrect statement. Look at Japan, Canada and of the Western
European Countries, and so on.

The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized
world.
 
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
Click to expand...

True but mostly very localized. For instance, the closest large city to me (Syracuse, NY) has maybe 3 murders a month, the area that I live, only 30 miles or so away, has MAYBE 3-5 in 15 years within a 20 mile radius. I wonder what the crime rate is in America if you take away the numbers from cities with populations over 1 million.


I think the reason those other countries have lower rates in because guns are essentially non-existent to good and evil folk.
 
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
Click to expand...

That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.
 
The claim assumes the badguy is in his right mind. He may be completely irrational.

He may be drunk, drugged, psychotic or any combination and not act like a "normal" person.

Don't fall into the trap of believing the badguy has the mental capacity to rationalize.
 
Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
 
Not to thread hijack but that happened to us in Jamica. We went to the central tourist market and started to wander out to see the real people and a nice policeman grabbed us and shooed us back to safety.
 
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
Click to expand...
That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.
Today 03:45 PM
Click to expand...

Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Click to expand...

Thanks to those who tightened up the loose verbiage about "safest" and "most violence."

The fact is, most of us....the VAST majority of us....will live our lives without ever being touched by violent crime personally. My own experience 2 years ago when my son was attacked, puts me out of the statistical bell curve on this (not to mention him of course :rolleyes:) We *feel* like it's more, because we watch the news and it seems an ever present threat. Certainly does down here.

But in comparison to Wildebees' life? Nah. I'll take mine, Houston crime or no Houston crime, thanks. My son lived through his attack. His girlfriend was untouched and only told to leave "or else". Would that have happened in South Africa, or Colombia, or Venezuela, or, heck, part of the UK? We live pretty well, and it's worth remembering once in awhile.

Springmom
 
"Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?"

Sorry, maybe I didnt express myself clearly. The reason I said that we try to take care of the staff as best we can is precisely because of what you are saying. The insider is the staff, as you point out, either willingly or under threat. But if you treat them well and they know they have a steady income, benefits and housing, at least you minimise the risk of them doing it willingly. And in Tanzania, we have neither tsotsis nor "war veterans" to worry about.

The alternative would be not to have any house staff at all, and I have been here much too long for that. The thought of doing dishes, cooking, laundry, babysitting, gardening, cleaning etc doesn't appeal to me one little bit.

"Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia."

Regarding crime capitals, I would not put all my faith in statistics. The figures for the western world (and possibly including SA and Colombia) may be more or less accurate, but how do you make even an approximation of the prevalence of crime in places like the Sudan, Zimbabwe or the Congo?

That NationMaster site had another chart that shows the USA in 8th place for murder with fire arms (to keep this fire arms related) and SA and Colombia trade places at the top:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

B.A.
 
I'm not saying I doubt you but have you ever actually KNOWN this to work? I've never seen or heard of it outside of Hollywood and internet lore.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have known it to work. I've seen it myself as a LEO, and I've taken a number of reports where the homeowner said the BG ran off when they realized the homeowner had a gun.
 
I've got two personal experience stories about this subject.

When I was in the Navy in Guam I did a TDY to the Joint Armed Forces Police. This was during the Iranian Crisis. We had a Marine amphibious force pull into harbor. The force had been in the Indian Ocean or on Diego Garcia for more than three months. They laid in for refuel and supplies. Around 5000 marines got their first shore liberty in three months. It was a real mess.

We got called to a bar fight just off base. We went in to break it up. Two sailors in a bar full of Marines. It got ugly and I got my leg cut with a butterfly knife. My partner racked the shotgun, all at once it was as quiet and cooperative as a country church.


Some 10 or so years ago I was on perimeter duty at the prison. A young black kid hit the fence. When I arrived he was just throwing a blanket over the razor wire coils on the outside fence. I got out of the vehicle with the 12 gauge and ordered him to the ground several times. He looked right at me and had to see the shotgun. When he grabbed the blanket to climb I racked a round in. That kid hit the ground so hard that I thought he was trying to crawl into it. He starred at me frozen like a stone until responders got him cuffed.
 
Like David Armstrong, I have seen it work when I was a LEO. On the other hand, I have seen it have absolutely zero effect on some hard bad guys.

We're all "reasonable people" here and therefore would think twice if we heard a shotgun being racked. However, the fact that you need to confront someone with a shotgun may lead one to believe that the other person is not reasonable.

Denny
 
clickety-clack

Of course. Civilised, uniformed, even though slightly rowdy and unruly enlisted men used to disciplne were the threat. That clackity-clack then was a sound of authority to frustrated, but still civilised men.

The unruly crowd was not on a planned, considered, tactical plan, the action being executed by four armed terrorists, driven and inspired by a government and police force that not only allows criminal action but whose very actions are intent on protecting them.

Your crowd had not carefully gathered information about your weak spots for weeks, and they had not considered which is the best time to strike your house in order to obtain and maintain the initiative against the considered odds. They were not murderers intent on murder. So they were intimidated by the metallic clackity-clack as any thinking, law abiding, logical man would.

The considered and executed house break murderer with the pre-meditated plan to murder and to shed blood and to terrorise shall not be intimidated. He has come to intimidate.

Let's say there were two shotguns in the unruly crowd, and say THESE were racked and aimed at your unloaded shotgun carrier and others, and say that you KNEW that this same gang and many like them have been doing this with impunity for 14 years now, AND shooting the first threatening move - shall you just rack your shotgun as well and stand and think: "well my clackity-clack was louder than his clackity-clack, so he shall put his hands up and beg you to please not shoot?

No sir. Not in this country where I live. And not even if in your situations the perpetrators had loaded guns and enjoyed bloodshedding and humiliating and killing.

Be glad that you still have a government and law enforcement agencies that do not allow criminals a free hand. Be glad that law and order still exists. Please keep a government in the White House that keeps your country under civilised control otherwise your children shall live in a future USA where your guns shall be confiscated, or the situation shall be made impossible to own and keep and bear your firearm.

When that happens, the Africa situation shall come into play. With savages filled with bloodlust that shall savagely murder and maim and rape. Terrorists do not only wear beards and frocks and hijack aeroplanes. In this country it is a kind of human being who simultaneously believes that raping young girls younger than three years old shall cure his Aids. It happens regularly and is spread as gospel.

Like a Cape Buffalo intent on killing you, only a bullet in the brain shall prevent him from shooting first.
 
The problem I have with some of the incidents described is that aren't you behind the reactionary gap when actually faced with your opponent.

It is a situation where you contemplate lethal force - knives are out. So you have to rack if you want to shoot? Slow? Could you mess up the rack - not that I would or any of us.

It would seem to me that the second I'm holding the gun because I need it, I'm racking then and there. If the sound helps - it's plus.

However, do I get the feeling that some are waiting to rack so that they can explicitly engage in some dominance inducing behavior as compared to racking when they need the gun. I understand the technical reasons for chamber empty but being me, academic, I'm interested in a deliberate display.
 
I wouldn't count on any "racking" sounds to save your life. I would hope that the sound of the blast would scare off the criminal, but that's only if I miss... and hopefully I don't miss... :D
 
Wild is the wild West...

Dear Doc,

I see you have pulled back your hammer and your fourty-four is pointing at my belly. Now I also know that last week you did the same thing to that youngster who started to cry, and then you smiled and shot him. Mind that muzzle, sir... and I know that two days before that you played this game with that girl and then forced yourself onto her and then you shot her through the temples.. now don't get excited now, we are civilised citizens here debating a little matter of ethics... And I was told that for a few years now... Why are you smiling sir?...

OK, tell you what - I am going to draw my Navy now, and I am going to yank the hammer back real hard; it is going to go CLICK!!! Now when you hear that fearsome sound you must know that I just may mean business here! Understand? Understand?
 
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