FBI uses chainsaw on wrong place

We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right?

They don't talk about it much except to say it is under investigation. Still it happens a lot less than you might think. I reckon police get the wrong address more often than they get shot and killed during raids (which despite TV happens almost never).

You see chain saws in fire and rescue applications frequently. I must admit this is a first for me in law enforcement.
 
Fifteen or twenty years ago (the days are hastening by) there was a case in Philadelphia where the police went after some bad guys in a townhouse. The bad guys, whoever they were, had practially fortified the house. It ended up with almost the whole block being burned down. The citizens did not complain!

The point is, generally speaking, the citizenry are often as not behind the heavy-handed tactics the police sometimes use. You read it here just as often as you read the opposite. If you want the government to be tough on crime, you got it.
 
44 AMP said:
Already mentioned, the most salient points, the use of extreme force and "dynamic entry" where it doesn't seem called for. Getting the address wrong is something that has been happening since there were cops. The big difference is that today, we hear more about it, thanks to our wonderful advanced communications net.

We don't pay as much attention to it when the cops get the right address, and get shot at, or shot, that's just everyday business, right?
No, we pay attention if it's a police officer who gets shot, too. Whoever gets shot, if it is because a no-knock or dynamic entry warrant is being "served" at an incorrect address (or at a correct address where the subject hasn't lived for six months or a year or more), it simply demonstrates that these types of warrants are being overused and abused.

In the old days, for the most part search warrants were "served" in the way the word connotes -- the police knocked on the door, the occupant answered, the police handed them a copy of the warrant and said "We have a warrant to search these premises, please step aside and let us in." When served in this manner, a wrong address or a skipped subject is not a major deal, not a threat to anyone's life, because the occupant can read the warrant and point out that "This is 373 NORTH Elm Street, 373 South Elm Street is a mile south of here, on the other side of Main Street," or "This is apartment 22C, your warrant is for apartment 22G," or "My name is Horatio Hornblower, Sigmund Freud used to live here but he moved eight months ago."

When the police insist on smashing down the door "in the interest of safety," all that becomes irrelevant.

Further, if you read the laws pertaining to search warrants, they typically read in a way that is supposed to afford the servee (if that's a word -- if not, I just made it up) an opportunity to read the warrant. No knocks and dynamic entries are supposed to be rare exceptions to the general rule regarding searches. Unfortunately, thanks to a generally spineless judiciary, these types of warrant "services" are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

For example, this is what Pennsylvania's statutes say about serving a search warrant:

234 PA Code said:
Rule 207. Manner of Entry Into Premises.

(A) A law enforcement officer executing a search warrant shall, before entry, give, or make reasonable effort to give, notice of the officer’s identity, authority, and purpose to any occupant of the premises specified in the warrant, unless exigent circumstances require the officer’s immediate forcible entry.

(B) Such officer shall await a response for a reasonable period of time after this announcement of identity, authority, and purpose, unless exigent circumstances require the officer’s immediate forcible entry.

(C) If the officer is not admitted after such reasonable period, the officer may forcibly enter the premises and may use as much physical force to effect entry therein as is necessary to execute the search.
Note the multiple references to giving "reasonable" notice, and to waiting a "reasonable" time, as well as the requirement to identify himself and his authority. The exception is for "exigent circumstances." The problem is that the police (in general) are telling the courts that virtually every warrant is a case of exigent circumstances. That's a logical fallacy, because "exigent" cannot be pre-established. Exigent circumstances is when the officer is standing at the door talking to a woman who says the guy they're looking for left town, and the officer sees the guy at the end of the hall entering the bedroom. THAT's "exigent circumstances."
 
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How is a law abiding citizen to know this while sitting in his own home? do you mean tell me that if you were sitting there and a chainsaw whent ripping through your door that your first thought would be "oh its probably just the police at the wrong house again"? I know my first thought is someone is coming here to do me and my family harm and i'm going to take appropriate action.
 
manta49 said:
Fair enough if you think its a good idea shooting at the police.

None of us thinks shooting at the police is a good idea, I hope. None of us is advocating shooting it out with the police intentionally.

manta49, your N. Ireland life and police view has very, very little to do with the reality of armed home invasions in the USA. Instead of telling us what the police in N. Ireland would do, or what you would do there; research armed home invasions, burglary and murder in the USA. Claiming to be the police is one tactic home invaders use. Waiting to see if the guys in camouflage with weapons are really police could cost you your life. Think about it, if you are innocent (as far as you know) and law abiding, you have no reason to suspect they are real police.

44 AMP said:
Yes, we all are ready to defend our homes from attackers (and rightly so), but shooting at the police (even when you don't know they are the police) seldom ends well, for anyone, and never ends well for everyone.


Exactly 44 AMP, most all of us are all prepared to defend our homes with deadly force. Shooting at the police would be tragic, no matter how it turned out.

Thats why this is so serious and in my opinion, rises way above a simple mistake. Great pains should be taken to insure they have the right address and if their negligence causes serious injury, or death someone should be severely punished. All of the onus should fall on the invaders, not the invaded. Its hardly police bashing to insist that they get the right address.
 
nate45


manta49, your N. Ireland life and police view has very, very little to do with
the reality of armed home invasions in the USA. Instead of telling us what the police in N. Ireland would do, or what you would do there; research armed home invasions, burglary and murder in the USA. Claiming to be the police is one tactic home invaders use. Waiting to see if the guys in camouflage with weapons are really police could cost you your life. Think about it, if you are innocent (as far as you know) and law abiding, you have no reason to suspect they are real police.

Try looking into terrorist attacks in N Ireland. You will find a favorite method of attack was coming trough your front door with a sledge hammer and then shooting you. A favorite method for police house entry is coming trough your door with a sledge hammer. You would better make sure which you know which it is before you start shooting. Not easy but get is wrong and you will have plenty of time in jail to wish you had identified your target before shooting.
 
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Fifteen or twenty years ago (the days are hastening by) there was a case in Philadelphia where the police went after some bad guys in a townhouse. The bad guys, whoever they were, had practically fortified the house. It ended up with almost the whole block being burned down. The citizens did not complain!

If you are talking about the 1985 Philly police confrontation with MOVE, lots of people did complain including the mayor. The fact was that the people in the house were a total bunch of nut jobs living in filth and waste. The neighbors had been complaining for years about the crazies and practically begging the police to do something about it. To top it off they then killed a cop.

The police responded by dropping a bomb from a helicopter after a lengthy stand off. I don't see how that applies here at all.
 
manta49 said:
Try looking into terrorist attacks in N Ireland. You will find a favorite method of attack was coming trough your front door with a sledge hammer and then shooting you. A favorite method for police house entry is coming trough your door with a sledge hammer. You would better make sure which you know which it is before you start shooting. Not easy but get is wrong and you will have plenty of time in jail to wish you had identified your target before shooting.

I could not find anything about terrorists and sledgehammers in N. Ireland. Perhaps you can provide some links to statistics and examples? I know I can provide plenty of examples of home invasions here in the USA and of police serving warrants at the wrong address.

For the sake of discussion though, how would you identify the police as not being terrorists if they both use the same entry methods? Also, if you are a law abiding citizen; why would the police be breaking down your door? If an incident like that described in the Op happens in N. Ireland, what do the police say 'sorry'? Sorry we got the wrong address and sorry we used the same entry methods as terrorists, sorry you were confused and tried to defend yourself, but now you must go to prison because of our mistake? Sounds ridiculous to me, but I don't have to worry about the laws of N. Ireland, just like you have no worries about US law.

You see, the point many of us are trying to make, is that getting the wrong address, unduly puts law abiding citizens in unnecessary jeopardy. Reasonable, law abiding people, that have their doors kicked in by armed men tend to assume the worst.
 
In this age of high tech GPS, survelliance gear and the other techno gagets the Cops use. They have forgotten two basic skills.

1. How to Read the address on a warrant.
2. How to use a Thomas Guide or Rand Mcnally street guide.

I think we should expect those basic skills from the "Premier Law Enforcement Agency".
 
44 AMP posted a warning earlier in the thread, and some folks aren't getting it. Posts have been disappeared.

If we want to discuss the legal issues surrounding a given law enforcement action, that's fine. If the line gets crossed into cop bashing or fantasies of shooting it out with law enforcement, we're done here.
 
Quote.

You see, the point many of us are trying to make, is that getting the wrong address, unduly puts law abiding citizens in unnecessary jeopardy. Reasonable, law abiding people, that have their doors kicked in by armed men tend to assume the worst.
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No one is saying that the police should not of went to the wrong address i tought that would go without saying but obviously not. As for methods of forced entry the same methods are used most of the world over. I have seen on a progharm showing police in England using a chain saw to enter a house. If the police entered the wrong house here then it would be reported to the police ombudsman for investigation and disciplinary action taken if necessary. If you are not sure weather its the police coming trough your door or someone wanting to do you harm, then you would have to make a judgment and better get it right.
 
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manta49 said:
If you are not sure weather its the police coming trough your door or someone wanting to do you harm, then you would have to make a judgment and better get it right.
That's sort of the crux of the issue, isn't it? The issue is, in a supposedly free society allegedly operating under the rule of law, exactly WHY should the citizen be put in the position of having to worry that the ruffians breaking through his front door might be the police?
 
Fitchburg is such a crap hole of a town, they probably just figured if it was the wrong house they'd fine something illegal any ways.. Does the lady deserve more than an apology and a new door? Yes. Millions of dollars, Hell no... :rolleyes:
 
44 AMP posted a warning earlier in the thread, and some folks aren't getting it. Posts have been disappeared.

If we want to discuss the legal issues surrounding a given law enforcement action, that's fine. If the line gets crossed into cop bashing or fantasies of shooting it out with law enforcement, we're done here.

Tom, I understand that staff has to keep things in order here @ TFL. However, human beings (civilians, LEO, forum admin) make mistakes, fact of business, period end. TFL members choose to discuss the nature of law enforcement (who, are paid to uphold the law and do so with competence, and who will punish or kill you without mercy) and the easily avoidable, unacceptable mistakes that they make, let them discuss.

I'm not bashing cops or forum staff, I'm just expecting law enforcement and forum staff to live by the same standard that they enforce.
 
In England you go to jail if you shoot anyone, invading or not. Criminals are the kings.
Here I can state without reservation that there is no lawful reason for any law enforcement agency to do a violent "dynamic entry" into my home, and we do have incidents of LE impostors doing such home invasions in neighboring locations. So I would act as if it were, and most likely, (99% probability, in my humble opinion), unlawful invaders, being that anyone breaking down my security doors is not someone looking for donations to The 100 Club. Measures appropriate to the situation would be implemented. Dealing with the aftermath would be hard, expensive,and undoubtedly life changing.

BTW, if anyone does ask for donations, that is a great outfit to donate to.:cool:
 
armoredman. Quote.

In England you go to jail if you shoot anyone, invading or not. Criminals are
the kings.
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You are wrong. In this instance the weapon was a knife. But if he had taken a gun of him and used it to shoot him it would of being the same result you have the right to self defence in the UK that includes lethal force. Example of self defence below.


Vincent Cooke, 39, killed Raymond Jacob, 37, a career criminal, during a violent struggle at his detached house in Bramhall, Stockport, Greater Manchester, last month.

Yesterday, as the Crown Prosecution Service announced that Mr Cooke would not be charged over the incident, the businessman said he had endured "a living nightmare". He also revealed that he was suffering flashbacks about the incident and would never forget "the day that I had to fight for my life".
 
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Quote. armoredman.




So Tony Martin is out of jail with his life back? Thanks for the gratuitous insult, and welcome to the ignore list.
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Tony Martin Had his firearms certificate revoked for shooting at the car of a salesman that was on the lane to his farm. The shotgun that he used to shoot 2 unarmed buglers he possessed illegally.

So he shot to buglers with a illegal shotgun. One he shot was fleeing the seen. And you are surprised he went to jail. Possessing an illegal shotgun was enough to get jailed shooting 2 people with it was more than enough.

Ignore me and these facts if you wish to. PS didn't mean to insult i have removed the offending part of the post.
 
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The right is there in the UK, however it is interpreted in some crazy ways in the courts. For example if you fire four shots at a car trying to run you over and between the third and fourth shot the car turns, the fourth shot is not allowed and they can send you to prison for that.

Most courts in the US would not convict someone under such circumstances.
 
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