FBI post-miami decisions

TunnelRat said:
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say 22lrs with good tactics would be enough when you're talking steel car bodies. Also, let's not minimize what happened. Platt was shot 12 times. "Underpowered" ammo or not we're talking a US Army Ranger who served in Vietnam. On autopsy he had 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. This was without drugs. He was one tough SOB. Agent Mireles keeping the fight going despite being seriously injured deserves an incredible amount of credit.
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Thats true, That Ranger was one tough SOB.
But given todays tactics if done right. That Tough SOB would not have had a chance to shoot up every one and every thing.
I would assume given the threat they posed. Today he would have jumped out with his Mini 14 and gotten a well aimed shot to the noggin. ( I assume)
If I am correct the FBI initiated the event. That gives them the initiative.

If the bad guys start the fight then ya, they get a say in how it goes down.( they get a say ether way but the initiative just dictates how much of a say)
but if you start it. ducks need to be in a row.

He did use standard counter ambush tactics of the day. Aggressively take the fight to the enemy by over whelming them with volume of fire.
 
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A pause for the COZ said:
Thats true, That Ranger was one tough SOB.

But given todays tactics if done right. That Tough SOB would not have had a chance to shoot up every one and every thing.

I would assume given the threat they posed. Today he would have jumped out with his Mini 14 and gotten a well aimed shot to the noggin. ( I assume)

If I am correct the FBI initiated the event. That gives them the initiative.



If the bad guys start the fight then ya, they get a say in how it goes down.

but if you start it. ducks need to be in a row.



He did use standard counter ambush tactics of the day. Aggressively take the fight to the enemy by over whelming them with volume of fire.
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No one is saying the agents had good tactics. I'm merely cautioning that even with today's training the caliber of people they were up against makes an easy victory not a sure thing.
 
I hope they learned to pay more attention to the firepower their adversaries have and not to, for example, bring handguns to rifle fights.
 
This thread has appeared here and on other forums. To answer the OP, the answer is FeeBee is filled with women and girlie-men couldn't handle the "fierce" recoil of a major caliber firearm, so they wrote specs to fit the Wonder-9, which is the largest caliber that these affirmative action employees can handle. Pass.
 
To answer the OP, the answer is FeeBee is filled with women and girlie-men couldn't handle the "fierce" recoil of a major caliber firearm, so they wrote specs to fit the Wonder-9, which is the largest caliber that these affirmative action employees can handle. Pass.
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I guess Larry Vickers, Travis Haley, Massad Ayoob, and the majority of trainers out there must also be women and girlie-men. Someone should tell them ASAP.
 
Tactics and training were the major issues in the Miami shootout. Going to 10mm was a mistake, because they felt if they had more powerful handguns, then their agents could have survived.

Now, going from a .40/.45 cal down to 9mm, because of what?? Advances in ammo makes the 9mm a superior round? They are justifying this change based on economics, and a different PC agent.

Again, tactics and training.
 
Now, going from a .40/.45 cal down to 9mm, because of what?? Advances in ammo makes the 9mm a superior round? They are justifying this change based on economics, and a different PC agent.
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Economics absolutely factors into any government agency, and we should hope that it does. The 40SW pistols required more frequent maintenance than the 9mm pistols. Across a large agency over many years that cost adds up. There are many that argue that the difference between 40SW and 9mm is relatively minor. If you can have the same level of performance with less maintenance, less recoil, and greater capacity, wouldn't you do the same? Now we can debate whether the 9mm actually does achieve the same level of performance as 40SW (we've done that plenty here on other threads) and whether that difference in performance is really as minor as is claimed, but if you do accept that argument then their decision seems pretty obvious and not so much about being PC. Couple that with many people that are considered "experts" in the field having switched back to 9mm years ago and many people consider the FBI as lagging behind the times.
 
It was an error in tactics that was blamed on pistol caliber, likely in an effort to save face as well as to not insult the agents that died.
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As a 20+ year police officer and firearms and tactics instructor, the statement above are true words. As much as I don't want to say it, the agents involved were WAY too complacent, given they KNEW they were dealing with men who had displayed brutal violence and failed to bring good tactics to the fight. Part of good tactics is being properly equipped. A 5 shot wheel is NOT proper equipment for confronting bank robbers armed with rifles.

Poor tactics goes way beyond just the way they moved, approached, shot, etc. I consider your gear to be part of your tactics and plan, if they weren't, why bring them?
 
A 5 shot wheel is NOT proper equipment for confronting bank robbers armed with rifles.
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To be fair, no one was carrying a 5 shot revolver as a primary gun. That said, one could argue that poor tactics are what resulted in having to bring backup guns into play.
 
To be fair, no one was carrying a 5 shot revolver as a primary gun. That said, one could argue that poor tactics are what resulted in having to bring backup guns into play.
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Agent Hanlon lost his 6 shot 357 magnum revolver in the initial collision and was left with his 5 shot Model 36 backup. Agent Manauzzi, on the other hand, also lost his primary in the initial collision but had no backup and didn't fire a shot during the event. Backups very much came into play.
 
Backups very much came into play.
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Correct, but having a 5 shot backup revolver is very different from going into a gunfight with ONLY a 5 shot revolver.

My comment about tactics was meant in the sense that had tactics been a little better, the 5 shot backups would likely never have been used. One agent used his because he unholstered his primary and laid it on the seat. In the confusion of the car stop, it fell off the seat and was lost, leaving him with only his backup. Another agent transitioned to his backup after running his primary dry but then realized it wasn't going to be productive at the range he was shooting. So he reloaded his primary and continued to engage with it.
 
My comment about tactics was meant in the sense that had tactics been a little better, the 5 shot backups would likely never have been used. One agent used his because he unholstered his primary and laid it on the seat. In the confusion of the car stop, it fell off the seat and was lost, leaving him with only his backup. Another agent transitioned to his backup after running his primary dry but then realized it wasn't going to be productive at the range he was shooting. So he reloaded his primary and continued to engage with it.
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Definitely a good story to review what not to do in many cases.
 
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They went to the S&W 13 and 158gr .38 load and praised its 'stopping power'. Then went to a watered down 10mm load and praised its 'stopping power'. Then to a 9mm load and praised its 'stopping power' (but only for interm use). Then to the .40 S&W and 'praised its stopping power' (meanwhile Scully and Muller had to keep switching guns in the X-Files.) And now back to the 9mm and they say there is no such thing as 'stopping power' and (snicker) it has nothing to do with cost factors.

I don't think much of the FBI's pronouncements.
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I don't either. They seem to flit back and forth and can't make up their minds so I don't give them a second thought. What works (or doesn't work) for them has no bearing on what I want or think I require. They remind me of a 15 year old girl who can't decide what dress to wear on her first date.:(
 
Is there any evidence to show that one of their goals was to duplicate .357Mag performance?
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My recollection is the post-Miami debate within the Bureau was big hole (ie, .45 Auto) vs high capacity (ie, 9 Luger). Urey Patrick, the agent who summarized the outcome of the handgun terminal ballistics workshop held at Quantico in the late '80s, was a big hole proponent.

During the debate the 10 Auto made an appearance, someone had bought one and brought it in for others to try, folks were impressed, and the caliber was adopted as a compromise. At the time premium 9 Luger JHPs did not expand reliably, and some that did failed to penetrate adequately.
 
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FBI post-miami decisions
I understand they wanted 357mag level performance in a semi auto.
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I don't think that's what they wanted, exactly. What the FBI wanted was to come out of a pile of manure smelling like a rose. What they got, trying one thing after another was not smelling like a rose, but at least it didn't completely stink.

The FBI has tremendous prestige, touted as the premier law enforcement agency in the nation. Their decisions have tremendous influence throughout all "lesser" agencies in the LEO community.

They are also, I think, the least experienced "police" agency when it comes to actual "street cop" work, overall. J. Edgar (supposedly) didn't want cops, he wanted agents. Guys with degrees, law, business, accounting, etc. He wanted investigators, not shooters. He needed shooters, too, and he had some, but the main focus of the FBI was not tactical ops during his tenure.
Although his influence lasted for some time afterwards, as well, things have changed a lot, since.

Complicating matters is the assumed infallibility of the FBI, along with bureaucratic and individual human nature.

The 86 Miami shootout very publically showed how the FBI's decisions, training, and practices were drastically flawed. They stank!

The Miami shootout has become a textbook case for "things NOT to do" when dealing with violent criminals.

Can't blame the heroic dead and crippled agents for all of the failures (they did after all stop the bad guys and paid a horrendous price to do so).

Can't admit publically that the infallible FBI was simply wrong about some things. What's left????? (looks around...)

AH! The failure of the 9mm round!!!!!! (shines very bright light on the 9mm round, and gets out the rubber hoses....)

Here's where I differ from the FBI, I think that 9mm Silvertip did exactly what it was required to do. No, it didn't penetrate quite far enough to end the fight faster, that day. But it penetrated as far as the FBI said was needed.

The real ammo failure was the FBI choosing what later proved to be inadequate performance requirements. (note that today's requirements are different, things have been learned)

Here's something to ponder, How might things have turned out differently if that 9mm Silvertip had been an FMJ? Its not beyond the realm of possibility that the penetration of the FMJ (in the exact circumstances where the Silvertip "failed") might have been enough to reach the heart, or further.

We debate endlessly about expansion & penetration, there are valid points on all sides, but one point I think is constant, and that is that ANY hole through a vital organ is better than a bigger hole that doesn't get to that vital organ.
 
What cracks me up is that the Miami shootout is still being discussed 30 years after the fact. Although it comes up often as a topic of discussion on the boards, it never fails to stir up some heat. A true energizer bunny of firearm message board discussion topics.
 
After all, the 1076 weighs 40 ounces unloaded.
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Yup, it is a heavy gun, limited to a single stack magazine and with a fairly long reach to the trigger for the DA shot. So not optimum for agents with smaller hands who don't need all that weight in the holster.

And I thought this thread was going to be about the latest FBI caliber and pistol quest. Who knows, it may still get there. Perhaps I can move it along.

Did you hear that the FBI specs can only be satisfied by one gun, the SIG 320?

Do you think anybody else will make new designs which could meet the FBI spec?

Actually, that may have happened. Both Ruger and Beretta have new striker-fired pistols in the SHOT Show, show it to the public phase. Things will interesting for the next year as those are evaluated.

Bart Noir
 
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