FBI post-miami decisions

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Evil Monkey

New member
I understand they wanted 357mag level performance in a semi auto.

They went with 10mm auto that met the requirements, then downloaded it due to recoil (lol), and finally accepted the 40sw.

i don't understand why they couldn't just stretch out the 9mm to a 9x23mm winmag and get 357mag performance they were looking for, then complain of recoil (lol again), and finally accept 9mm nato?
 
Evil Monkey said:
I understand they wanted 357mag level performance in a semi auto.

They went with 10mm auto that met the requirements, then downloaded it due to recoil (lol), and finally accepted the 40sw.

i don't understand why they couldn't just stretch out the 9mm to a 9x23mm winmag and get 357mag performance they were looking for, then complain of recoil (lol again), and finally accept 9mm nato?
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While you can do "lol" about recoil as much as you want, besides recoil the frames of the 10mm autos were also larger and given the existence of smaller handed and female agents it wasn't completely ludicrous to consider size as a factor.

That all being said, the takeaway from the Miami shootout should have been that you don't fight a man skilled with a rifle who has a rifle with a number of agents with handguns (some of which were 357 magnum revolvers) and one shotgun (there was another but it didn't enter the fight). This was compounded with only having two bullet-resistant vests that were rated only for handgun rounds. If they had waited for the other agents that had MP5s and M16s the story may have ended differently. It was an error in tactics that was blamed on pistol caliber, likely in an effort to save face as well as to not insult the agents that died.
 
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besides recoil the frames of the 10mm autos were also larger and given the existence of smaller handed and female agents it wasn't completely ludicrous to consider size as a factor.
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Yeah with outdated metal framed pistols with hammer springs in the grip and huge grip panels, it can be a problem. But not with poly framed striker fired pistols.

Case in point, my polymer taurus 45 OSS had what felt to be a smaller grip than my polymer M&P40, even though they're both poly striker fired pistols.

I'm just trying to understand the thinking at the time. You want 357mag level performance, why not stretch out the 9mm? Was it even thought of?
 
Back when the shift from 10mm to 40 S&W happened, there were a lot of LEO surplus 10mm's cheap...I bought a like new S&W 1006 for $250.
The only serious ammo I could easily find was the Silvertip 175gn. I found it to be an excellent combination with superb accuracy at 50yds.
I could easily see going Glock 20 for all my handgun needs.
 
I'm just trying to understand the thinking at the time. You want 357mag level performance, why not stretch out the 9mm? Was it even thought of?
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The thinking behind it, was to put 200gr bullet moving at 1300fps, punching a big hole in someone.
 
I understand they wanted 357mag level performance in a semi auto.

They went with 10mm auto that met the requirements, then downloaded it due to recoil (lol), and finally accepted the 40sw.
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It would be more accurate to say that they found that they could meet their requirements with the lighter loading.

Is there any evidence to show that one of their goals was to duplicate .357Mag performance? That would be interesting--I can't recall seeing that mentioned before.
 
Is there any evidence to show that one of their goals was to duplicate .357Mag performance? That would be interesting--I can't recall seeing that mentioned before.
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I assumed this to be true. Doesn't mean it is, but based what they ended up with (10mm), I'd say that seems to have been the goal.
 
I think they desired a round with MORE penetration then the 9mm round they were using.

That is based on the PERCEIVED lack of penetration they got with the 9mm during the shooting.
 
Evil Monkey said:
Yeah with outdated metal framed pistols with hammer springs in the grip and huge grip panels, it can be a problem. But not with poly framed striker fired pistols.



Case in point, my polymer taurus 45 OSS had what felt to be a smaller grip than my polymer M&P40, even though they're both poly striker fired pistols.



I'm just trying to understand the thinking at the time. You want 357mag level performance, why not stretch out the 9mm? Was it even thought of?
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I think any relation to the 9mm might have been "tainted" at that point. They wanted more penetration and that was the direction they went. Again, there were 357 magnums on the scene so I'm not sure the thinking was that 357 magnum was magic. That was more the goal behind the 357 SIG.
 
I would bet most, if not all, of those using a .357 revolver loaded it with .38's. A friend of mine is a retired FBI agent and he said almost nobody carried .357 ammo, at least those he knew throughout his 27 years with the Bureau.
 
How many rounds did agents fire that day?

How many were actually blocked by cars?

Windows only deflect one bullet(kind of).

Cars have much thinner metal panels than they did 20 years ago. More and more of those panels are aluminum or plastic instead of steel.

As others said, blaming tactical mistakes of dead agents wasn't on anyone's to do list.
 
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TunnelRat said:
That all being said, the takeaway from the Miami shootout should have been that you don't fight a man skilled with a rifle who has a rifle with a number of agents with handguns (some of which were 357 magnum revolvers) and one shotgun (there was another but it didn't enter the fight). This was compounded with only having two bullet-resistant vests that were rated only for handgun rounds. If they had waited for the other agents that had MP5s and M16s the story may have ended differently. It was an error in tactics that was blamed on pistol caliber, likely in an effort to save face as well as to not insult the agents that died.
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DING DING DING!!!!!!! Even as a layman, when I read the details of that event.
I went... Cripes no wonder they got their butts shot up.
Good part is even though the public face was put on the caliber.
They have in fact seriously upper their game as far as tactics are concerned.
Using proper tactics they could have controlled the situation even if all of them were armed with 22lr's.

amd6547 said:
Back when the shift from 10mm to 40 S&W happened, there were a lot of LEO surplus 10mm's cheap...I bought a like new S&W 1006 for $250.
The only serious ammo I could easily find was the Silvertip 175gn. I found it to be an excellent combination with superb accuracy at 50yds.
I could easily see going Glock 20 for all my handgun needs.
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You still have that gun... right???:)
 
There's an excellent summation of the situation here. Many factors contributed to the whole mess, but the primary ones had little to do with hardware. Much of the failure can be blamed on poor decisions and flawed tactics.

To a large extent, it was easier to blame the hardware/
 
(some of which were 357 rd revolvers)
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And all of them with .38 spl. loads. Thus .357 with .38s = .38s.

The FBI as a habit of political factors being part of their decision criteria.

They went to the S&W 13 and 158gr .38 load and praised its 'stopping power'. Then went to a watered down 10mm load and praised its 'stopping power'. Then to a 9mm load and praised its 'stopping power' (but only for interm use). Then to the .40 S&W and 'praised its stopping power' (meanwhile Scully and Muller had to keep switching guns in the X-Files.) And now back to the 9mm and they say there is no such thing as 'stopping power' and (snicker) it has nothing to do with cost factors.

I don't think much of the FBI's pronouncements.

Deaf
 
A pause for the COZ said:
DING DING DING!!!!!!! Even as a layman, when I read the details of that event.

I went... Cripes no wonder they got their butts shot up.

Good part is even though the public face was put on the caliber.

They have in fact seriously upper their game as far as tactics are concerned.

Using proper tactics they could have controlled the situation even if all of them were armed with 22lr's.
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I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say 22lrs with good tactics would be enough when you're talking steel car bodies. Also, let's not minimize what happened. Platt was shot 12 times. "Underpowered" ammo or not we're talking a US Army Ranger who served in Vietnam. On autopsy he had 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. This was without drugs. He was one tough SOB. Agent Mireles keeping the fight going despite being seriously injured deserves an incredible amount of credit.
 
At the time I probably had my head in the sand, hardly noticed the Bren Ten (10mm) and 40 S&W. Busy shooting and tinkering with the 1911, over the years came to the realization it was a classic. That's a polite way of saying it's a pain in the rear. :o
 
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