FBI 1911

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Ed2000

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I got a chance to skim the article on the new FBI .45 in the latest issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement (I think). From what I gathered the Les Baer guns from several years ago were a complete failure. However, the new Springfield Armory single stack 1911s appear to be awesome. I think their torture test resulted in several guns firing 80,000 rounds in total, with fewer than 10 jams (8 I think). I doubt any brand or design of firearm could have done any better, especially when giving the same degree of accuracy and first shot hit potential. In my mind, the article helped me to put to rest the idea that the 1911 is failure prone and outdated. What do ya'll think? Has anyone else seen the article?
 
I can't speak for the TRP, but my SA 1911 was less than satisfactory. While I don't mind getting a lemon, and SA was more than helpful in getting it back to the shop, I don't like any company claiming to sell a 'combat' weapon and not equipping it with tritium sights. They will spend the money on fancy wood grips, but can't find the money for sights that you can see in less-than-noon conditions!??? I would think far better of them if they had put on cheap plastic grips and mandatory night sights.

I might buy another SA, but it would be used, not new, and it would have to be a spectacular deal. If the TRP went through all that testing, why haven't their other pistols? Why aren't they all built to that quality?

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When Reason Fails.....
 
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I am pleased with my SA. I would have to disagree with you some about the night sights. On a "loaded" model the night sights should probably be included rather than nice grips (or in addition to them). However, I don't think night sights are truly necessary on a defensive pistol, just desirable.
 
Ed2K, My SA is one of their "loaded" versions and it arrived with black sights. I tried shooting it as the sun set but accuracy was unimaginably poor. I literally couldn't distinguish the front sight from the rear sight or the target.

Now imagine if this was a burglar instead of a steel plate and it was 3am! What would my accuracy have been? Considering that the majority of attacks take place in the period commonly referred to as Odarkhundred, it isn't very smart to put black sights on a weapon you claim is for defense. But it sure does look pretty with those rosewood/cocobolo grips!

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When Reason Fails.....
 
True about defensive situations, but they also tend to occur at under 7 yards. I personally think instinctive shooting reins here. I don't have night sights on any of my guns. I did play with some once and I thought it took to much concentration to line up the night sights (dots). I think I would prefer to focus on the target. If I did want night sights, I would only want a front sight that glowed. For defense, I think we should all strive to use guns that point instinctively for us so that we do not have to depend on sights when conditions are less than perfect.
 
I have owned several Springfield 1911's and still have one Loaded model . I have never had a malfunction with any of them and the accuracy has always been outstanding . I have night sights on several handguns but I do not think they are a must have item , I actually shoot better with all black sights . And I love the checkered wood grips . Good luck , Mike...
 
Personally I think the FBI should quit buying expensive toys with our taxpayer dollars and just learn to shoot. While I own and enjoy expensive guns (bought with my own dollars) it is not the cost of the gun but the man/woman behind it. Why can't the FBI just go back to a S&W .357 magnum. And do away with this b.s. hostage rescue team. Maybe they need to go back to using brainpower instead of firepower.
 
Good point M-16 ;)

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"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"
 
I read the HK MK23's torture tests and they were much more demanding than the FBI Springfield. Endurance testing demonstrated a service life of over 30,000 rounds of +P ammunition. To meet the reliability requirement, the pistol had to demonstrate a minimum of 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages (MRBS) with both M1911 ball and +P ammunition. All pistols exceeded the 2000 MRBS with and average of 6000 MRBS. In more than 450 accuracy test firings from a precision firing fixture, MK23 pistols far exceeded the government requirement averaging 1.44 inches,with 65 groups of less than one inch, There were four groups of .5 inches, with 5 rounds going through the same hole. :D
 
Something as expensive and cumbersome as the MK23 should be more durable for the sheer mass of steel required to produce it.
 
I'm sure the FBI 1911 is a very good gun, and I'm sure the "agency mandated" load is also a very good one, but the most important element by far is the man, not the gun. If you want to improve the hardware past a certain reliability/ergonomics/accuracy/power level, you only get minimal gains for a lot of trouble, and expert shooters are a bit different from each other, with different tastes regarding grips/sights/trigger, etc., meaning that this "small gains" may not be the same for all.
 
I love mine.
Honestly I think its the finest 1911 you can buy. I'ld put mine up against ANYTHING form Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown...

But you know what - I'ld put up my LOADED Model 1911A1 up against them too.
IMO Springfield Armoury makes the BEST 1911s.

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You might laugh in the face of FEAR... but unless your armed, its a nervous, unconvincing, little laugh.
 
George Hill, I dont doubt your experience with SA1911-A1, but I am experienceing some FTF in my SA1911-A1 loaded with both ball and HP's. They are usually a failure to go into full battery and I have to push the slide forward. I have never had this with my Berettas, Sigs or Glocks. This is not a flame, it may be that I got an odd model or that I have a fixable problem.
 
Tlhelmer, how many rounds through your SA. If you are still having failure to go into battery problems after 400-500 rounds, I would send it back to SA. Call them first. They will give you their UPS # so that you don't have to pay for shipping.

If you have not hit the 400-500 round mark yet, keep shooting. The slide-to-frame fit on SA1911s is very tight and will need some "breaking in". I would also suggest a good grease, like Tetra or the like, for the rails as opposed to an oil. Good luck.


Regards,
Frank
 
Ed2000--There's also a great article in the Jan/Feb 2000 American Handgunner about the FBI's decision to choose the 1911 for their SWAT teams. It's accompanied by some of the finest pictures you'll ever see of a Springfield Bureau Model (before they had to change the name).

The article quotes a confidential FBI document that says, "After the Branch Davidian incident in Waco, Texas (1993), the Heymann report recommended that the SWAT tactical elements become standardized throughout the FBI...It was determined that ACCURACY would be the number one factor in developing a SWAT pistol." (Emphasis is in the original FBI report.)

The article details the eight suppliers who submitted pistols for the competition and the grueling tests that each weapon had to go through. Colt, Kimber, Springfield, Wilson, Les Baer, Pro Gun, Cylinder & Slide, and C-More Systems all submitted pistols.

Previously the SWAT teams had all been using Browning Hi-Powers; the Hostage Rescue Teams were the ones that were using the Les Baer customized Para Ordnance .45's.

The FBI/SWAT Request for Proposal specified that "all testing would be conducted with Remington 230 gr. Golden Saber ammunition and that the maximum acceptable accuracy would be 1.5" at 25 yards for three consecutive 10-shot groups fired from a Ransom Rest." One unsuccessful supplier claimed that wringing 1.5" groups from Golden Saber would be a miracle.

Les Baer dropped out after his pistols were returned to have Novak sights put on them. Cylinder & Slide dropped out over FBI warranty requirements. After the accuracy tests, only Springfield and Pro-Gun (a two man custom shop in Iowa operated by a former Springfield employee named Matt Gish) remained. When the FBI made their decision, it was Springfield who won the contract.

The RFP all but screamed "we want a customized 1911". The specification called for a ".45 caliber semiautomatic single action pistol," preferably made of steel with a grip safety, disconnector safety and an ambidextrous frame-mounted manual thumb safety. Additionally, the weapon can only accept a single column magazine holding no less than eight rounds. Section 10.1 went on to add "Magazines shall be sturdyily constructed...A magazine known to be acceptable is Bill Wilson #47DE." Wilson's #47DE is a stainless steel 1911 magazine.

What the FBI was looking for was a customized IPSC Limited Class pistol. Several HRT members regulary compete in IPSC matches. They specified an S&A mag funnel in Exhibit A, and according to American Handgunner, "In no reasonable scenario would a SWAT operator need to perform a speed reload, yet a mag funnel is de rigeur in IPSC matches with El Presidente drills requiring lightning fast mag changes."

The article details the rugged abuse tests that the pistols were subjected to both before and after accuracy tests. I didn't own a 1911 prior to reading the article. After reading it, I went out and bought a Springfield "Loaded" model (I couldn't afford the FBI Professional model) and have been exceptionally happy with both the accuracy and performance of mine...

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Take the long way home...
 
I think Gremlin is right on, I have also read that article. Now, (in my limited experience) I think not all experienced shooters would select the same alterations to their guns (grips, grip safety, sights, checkering), some may not be really neccesary (ambi safety, speed funnel), and I even like the feeling of my Para a bit better than the single stack. Why would anyone in a real world scenario NEED a 10 round, 25 yard, 1.5" grouping ability? Lower this standard to 2" and you lose nothing, get it cheaper, and probably more reliable. All in all, I think this is an outstanding weapon, but from a practical standpoint you are not getting much compared to a normal, tuned for reliability 1911 or Para, with some parts you want or think you need.
 
tlhelmer - if the gun is brand spanking new it needs some wear in. Gets a few boxes of some good ol cheap ball and light'm up.
The rule of thumb is not to even try to gauge a guns reliablity until after 500 rounds.
Thats gospel.
After 500 rounds the trigger and slide action should be worn in nicely and the gun will fire at its peak performance.

If this is after 500 round you may have a faulty spring. A simple replacementof a new/maybe heavier recoil spring should solve that issue.

If that didnt do it - a gunsmith and 50 to 75 bucks will not only fix it - but give you a gun capable of keeping up with the jones... or in this industry - the Wilsons.
 
"It was determined that ACCURACY would be the number one factor in developing a SWAT pistol."

Hmmm - and they went with Springfield... Interesting...

:D
 
Thanks for the information Mr. Hill and faiello5. I walked away from that first range session with a sick feeling in my stomach because I thought I had made a bad choice. I was thinking about sending it to Springfield Armory for some gunsmithing. Reliability tuning, and Trijicon sights. Do you have any experience with them or advice?


[This message has been edited by tlhelmer (edited June 20, 2000).]
 
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