Facts for debate: where are you weakest, and what do you need?

DC

Moderator Emeritus
There are buzz phrases/"facts" that the anti's continually use and are very effective.

Where are you weakest, and what do you need to counteract these?
I'm going to set up a webpage that will (hopefully) be a basic primer for the current GC climate.
I want the topics, areas and points that you are insecure..be rational and not macho...this is very much a war of reason vs. emotionalism.

Here are examples:
1) 2nd A...is it strictly militia or is militia an extension of personal defense?
2) 500,000 bad guys stopped by Brady
3) 13 kids a day die by guns.....

OK, let's go

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
suicide rate higher in households with firearms..
cop killer bullets..
existing laws that cover events.e.g. gun show loopholes..
need documented use of firearms for defense, dates times locations people...and stats of same, backed up and valid..
numbers of households with firearms as a proportion of the whole.
accidental, criminal and legal gun death breakdown stats.
crime stats for countries with weapons , switzerland isreal...and stats since weapons were taken from austrailia gb and canada...what years the weapons statues took place in those countries and corresponding crime rates and types..

y'know basically id like to be able to go to an hci site or chat...multiscreen and have gobs of VALID info at my fingertips
do you need any help setting this up?
I'm pretty computer illiterate, but would help
 
Yep...thats my goal.

Keep it orderly....define the topic, then what you need. A lot has already been posted on TFL but its hard to search for without keywords and a lot is stashed in stored files.

We make a list of topics; we then start a thread limited to that topic; tapping into the member knowledge base. Each thread header will be:

GCP: "whatever the topic is"

By putting "GCP"...the TFL search engine will bring up all of these threads, and I'll and (volunteers :)) will glean these for the webpage.

We need to be lean and mean for the long haul til November

where "GCP" =Gun Control Primer

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Had this comment the other day, "Handguns are only for killing people."

My response was that target shooting is fun and I've not killed anyone at the Utah Division of Fish and Wildlife's shooting range.

I think that's a weak answer. A better one would be appreciated.

--Denise
 
I went to HCI's site....they have a pretty nice set up...I've noticed that they have exact opposite stats on some things...it would be nice to beat them at that...publish a full report , not just an excerpt..
 
DC;

Most interested in cases where guns were used for self-defense. Documented as well as possible.
I have suicide rates world-wide by country. I beleive it's on an Excel spreadsheet. Japan, with virtually no private gun ownership is higher than U.S..Will forward if you're interested. Also have U.S. homicide stats by state - 92-98 with population. Also in Excel I beleive.
 
I don't necessarily have 'trouble' debating these points, but I could always use more information.

Fact:
The rate of violent crimes in the United States is at its lowest point since the 60s.


Possible Reasons:
Concealed Carry laws have been passed in many states and have made criminals think twice.
It is because of the Brady Law/NICS.
Tougher penalties on criminals have kept repeat offenders behind bars longer.

Fact:
I hear about a mass shooting or a school shooting just about every week. Ten years ago, I had never heard of such a thing.


Possible Reasons:
There are more mass/school shootings than there used to be.
There are the same number of these shootings, it's just that The Media reports them more often.
There are too many guns.
There are more violent movies, TV shows and video games than there used to be.
People have fallen away from morality/religion.

Some favorite(?) anti statements:
You don't NEED that ____________. (.50 Cal BMG, AK-47, AR-15, TEC-9, Lorcin, Jennings)
You don't NEED more than one gun per month.
You don't NEED a gun that holds more than ______ rounds of ammo. (75,50,30,20,10,6,?)
You don't NEED to own ________ rounds of ammo. (50K,20K,10K,5K,1K,100,10,?)
You don't NEED to own more than ________ guns. (50,20,10,5,2,?)
You don't NEED to buy a gun today, wait five days.

Assuming the second amendment *does* guarantee citizens the RKBA. Where do you draw the line? Air guns, Handguns, Bolt-Action Rifles, Semi-Auto Shotguns, Machine guns, Hand Grenades, RPGs, Howitzers, Tanks, Submarines, Surface to Air Missles, Tactical Nukes.

I was actually caught off guard with this one from a fellow gun owner recently. "You're one of those right-wing, NRA lovin', redneck, gun nuts, aren't you?"


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RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website


[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited March 12, 2000).]
 
Good Idea. First listen to the Anti's, identify their catch phrases and then set up a counter to each of them. Need hard data that is easily accessible to refute their lies:

"13 children killed each day" = document govt statistics on the actual number of children killed each year = shoot down their argument.

"Evil Assault guns" = document how many deaths attributable to assault guns each year = assault guns are not a problem.

" Evil NRA outspends good groups like HCI" = show how much NRA spends compared to how much HCI spends and actual memberships of each organization (3.2 Million vs 100,000) and how much each contributor donates = NRA is common people, HCI is elitist wealthy liberals.

Keep the replies short and concise and in simple language to get the point across. Often on TV the interviewees are not allowed to explain their position if the answer is long winded, replies must be short and catchy and understandable by poorly educated people.

Must also assume that the interviewer is going to be hostile to our side and be able to get across our side of the argument quickly.

The anti's must have a primer on how to advance their agenda? In other areas not related to firearms I have been involved in the anti's used the same tactics and similar lies. Is there a textbook on how to put forth leftist agendas? Can we get it and turn their tactics against them? They all seem to be singing off the same sheet of music whether they are atacking Firearms, Pesticides, Trapping etc.


Geoff Ross
 
Registration is one issue that bothers me. CA has made it a little easier to counter, by conveniently providing us with real-time examples of confiscation. However, most people still see that concern as overblown.

I need to study, and understand, exactly what benefits if any accrue to LEO's by having all firearms registered. And, it would be helpful to have a well-documented time-line / list of all registration = confiscation examples.

DC, thanks. Regards from AZ
 
A compilation of various often useful facts is a good idea. I don't have such facts to offer at present, though I'll try before too long to compile some. Some further thoughts:

I _strongly_ encourage anyone interested in the empirical debate to read _Targeting Guns_ by Kleck. Kleck is very good with critical insight and discussion of methodological issues as well as bringing out helpful facts. He provides a nice review of criminological and medical health literature there. The book is also full of references to and summary of the most important literature for any further reading. (For more on the public health guys see his older _Point Blank_, which is harder to find now.) _Targeting Guns_ is I think the most impressive book on gun control, for or against, there is.

I've had wide-ranging debates on all sorts of topics concerning guns, from the central to the obscure, over long periods of time (well, who hasn't on this board? ;)). In my experience, the most impressive data to those who are uninformed but anti-self-defense are the self-defense data from Kleck, and all those before him who get less credit. Both the total "X million" survey results and the efficacy of guns vs. other means of defense.

Second in impact is the very low accident rate for guns, as well as the fact that most "gun violence" is suicide.

These two things are impressive in and of themselves, but they also are impactful because they tend to make people realize the extent to which they've been propagandized. It's important not to underestimate this second kind of information. As you all pretty much know, the most obstinate support for gun control comes from ignorance combined with all the media coverage (except in a few recalcitrant cases, anyway). Start to knock off both of these legs and you can do a lot.

Let me just say, by that way, that just about everyone who posts on this board regularly is well-informed and doubtlessly has his or her own techniques in discussion. This is just my experience, and even that has varied a bit. So take it for what it is.

Lott's book, _More Guns, Less Crime_ is pretty good, too; it's just narrower than Kleck's in focus, and less useful against the old "but it would be better if no one had guns" chestnut.

The constitutional arguments I find are limited in their appeal. There is only a narrow range of people, I think, for whom two things are true: (1) they are able to have their minds changed, and (2) the constitutional issue is the dominant factor in their views on gun restrictions.

There are some places where reasonable, informed, and useful discussion can occur on the net: newsgroups other than the gun groups. Groups like the outdoor groups, the hiking groups, the bicycle groups, and (to a lesser extent) travel groups, like alt.culture.alaska. Many people I know said it was a few intelligent replies to "guns in the backcountry", or "guns on bicycles" threads which got them thinking differently about guns and gun control. These rage constantly, by the way, as anyone who lurks in these groups more than a day or two will discover.

Then there are the letters-to-the-editor type things, the importance of which is appreciated by lots and lots of people here already.

Maybe it's worth emphasizing how useful this kind of stuff is, though. The letters that you all write to papers, web sites, newsgroups, or wherever by and large make a very nice impression. They're smart, clear, informed, and reasonable. They make a difference, not just because of what you say but because of the mere fact that you come across in your writing as reasonable, responsible, and informed citizens. That someone who's not a violent, inarticulate misanthrope actually has the opinions you do makes an important impression in and of itself. When you consider the extent to which public education on guns rests almost entirely on the shoulders of people like those on this forum today this becomes even easier to appreciate.

Well, I suppose a good deal of what's in this post won't come as news to many here, but since I typed it I'll just leave it. Maybe it will be helpful to some.
 
sbryce,

When someone says "Handguns are only for killing people."

I say, "so what's your point? Do you think that the Second Amendment was written so our Founding Father's could go deer hunting?"

Doing that, will make their jaw drop and lead to a discussion of the intent of the Second Amendment, which is always a good thing.

DC,

My bigest problem is with people who are so afraid of guns to the point that they will not even debate the subject. They think that people should not be allowedd to keep guns at home or for non police/military to own them. I have been told...

"You can run from an attacker with a knife or club, but you cannot run from a person with a gun."

Since, this person would never in a million years think about arming themself, I wasn't sure what to say.

This may not be exactly what you are looking for, but it is all I have for now. ;-)

Joe

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
nralife,

"You cun run from an attacker with a knife or club, but you cannot run from a person with a gun."

My response would be "Then the same would be true for a defender, and I can assure you that the bad guy will stay right where I found him, staring at the business end of my gun, when the police arrive".



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NRA/GOA/SAF/USMC

"Is your church BATF approved?"
 
this is a great idea, I'm sure I can come up with more weak areas. I've heard that Japan has "murder/suicides" where the head of a house hold kills the family as well as himself. I've heard that this is counted as suicide. Is this true? Does this relate to the topic? ;) Thanks

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
 
Another one for the Primer - the 'a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to be used against the occupants than against an intruder, etc' study. Kellerman study? I also recall that it is junk science and can be rebutted factually and/or on methodological grounds.

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Slowpoke Rodrigo...he pack a gon...

Vote for the Neal Knox 13
 
Always rephrase the question. When they ask Why should you be able to own an "assault rifle"? First clarify that a true assault rifle has a selective fire capability and explain to the ignoramist the difference between full auto and semi-auto. Then ask, "Why shouldn't a law abiding American be allowed to own any gun they choose?" I guess innocent until proven guilty only applies to murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc.
You want a good reference, pick up "The Second Amendment Primer" by Les Adams and published by Palladium Press. This is a good book. I flew through this one. I found John Lott's "more guns, less crime" to be a bit dry, but this little second amendment primer is awesome. It traces the roots of the second amendment from ancient times to the founding of this nation and then the second amendment to the present.
The web page is:
http://www.palladiumpress.com/

Or at the NRA online store:
http://www.nrahq.org/store/palladium/store.cgi?list=Palladium_Press

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The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.
 
Topic list so far (in no order of importance):

1) 2nd A...is it strictly militia or is militia an extension of personal
defense?
2) 500,000 bad guys stopped by Brady
3) 13 kids a day die by guns.....
4) Suicide rate higher in households owning guns
5)Cop Killer bullets
6) Crime rate in other gun owning countries and crime rate in disarmed countries
7) Counter to "Handguns are only meant to kill people"
8) Documented cases of self defense and deterrence due to gun ownership (our own bestdefence .357 can help here)
9)Evil NRA outspends good groups like HCI..note that the media is anti-gun and HCI et al don't have to pay for coverage
10) Registration...will it lower crime?
11) Relatively low violence, death injuries due to guns vs other stuff
12) Emotional/irrational fear of guns...
13) Gun in home is more likely used against home member than badguy
 
Another one - the state in general, and police specifically, have no legal obligation to protect any one person from crime, and such failure to protect is not a Fifth or Fourteenth Amendment due process issue. DeShaney v Winnebago County Social Services, 489 US 189, 196, 197 (1989).

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Slowpoke Rodrigo...he pack a gon...

Vote for the Neal Knox 13
 
On today's AP wire, end of article:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> But Clinton's claim — which he has since revised to 12 children — concerns the average number of young deaths overall
from guns, not just accidents.
He bases it on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which says 4,223 juveniles were killed by guns in 1997.
That's an average of 11.6 per day.[/quote]

What's the CDC's definition of a juvenile? 21 and under is very different than 16 and under. We have a lot of different age levels at which kids are said to have "grown up" --driving, voting, drinking--and they vary state by state, too.

In a Red Cross CPR and safety course I took last summer, the book had a graph of total deaths in the U.S. Motor vehicle accidents is by far the largest. While any premature death is tragic, let's explain/define the numbers the anti's are using, then put them in context of all the accidents and deaths in our very large country. The U.S. is a very big country, you know.

A bit off topic, but the inconsistency really angers me: Clinton points out how many children are killed by guns every day. He's "doing it for the children." He says 13 (now says 12) in the whole country die every day. Mr. Abortion-Promoter has done everything he can--and a few things he can't--to promote abortion in this country. That's CHILDREN dying every day. At the abortion mill in Salt Lake City, in the mid 1990's it was 16-17 per day, 5 days a week. (I don't have current figures.) One location. Not the whole country. And in the yellow pages that mill advertised that they did them throught the second trimester--babies plenty old enough to keep alive just 10 minutes away at University Hospital.

If, IF Clinton were really "doing it for the children," we'd see other endeavors for the saving of children's lives.
-- Denise
 
"1) 2nd A...is it strictly militia or is militia an extension of personal defense?"

Counter argument:

"I believe that article 1 section 9 of the constitution SPECIFICALLY covers arming the militia and military, so therefore one can logically assume that the second ammendment is really ment for individuals...."

My memory is a bit foggy on the art. 1 sect 9 thing, can anyone back me up???
DW
 
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