Facts about 1911's...

Battler:

Everybody has a view. At one point, I wanted to carry a 1911. Then my next door neighbor's partner died with a cocked and locked GM in his hand -- shot in the throat from five feet by a perp with a cheap revolver. The "view" of that incident, included in Street Survival Seminars for years, was enough for me to think better of carrying a 1911 -- or any pistol that had a manual safety (and later, a decocking lever) on duty.

As for the officer having to pull a double-action trigger...the biggest benefit of a DAO pistol is that nice, long pull. With proper training and practice, the officer reaches a level of proficiency that equals his best performnce with a revolver. For most LE FI, that's a wonderful level to reach -- it's safe and efficient and works very well. True, a poor trigger, regardless of the action type or make or model of firearm, is a problem. That's why the department needs to carefully TE the possible choices for approved duty (an off duty) carry.

I stand by my comment on the Beretta 96D Brigadier in 40S&W. The pistol flamed every other make and model for ergonomics and handling, and many officers have fired the first "possible" of their career during the transitional training. If you haven't handled one, do yourself a favor and try it before you complain. It is an incredibly reliable, accurate, and infinitely "shootable" pistol.
 
I really like the Beretta D, but I think that it is rather unwise to dismiss handguns with a manual safety. I have managed to click the tiny button safety off of my 870 fast enough to nail rapidly moving quail, doves, and rabbits hundreds of times over the years. Why should swiping my thumb down on a 1911 be any different?

It is like anything else, a matter of practice. If you should care to carry a weapon with a manual safety then you should practice it. I think we are doing our officers a grave misservice if we assume that they are too dumb to get their safetys off in time. For the ones that don't like to practice, fine, let them carry DAO or Glocks or whatever floats their department's boat.

But I do think a manual safety has some definate bonuses for weapon retention.

I'm a finalist for hire with a local Sheriff's Department that allows carry of personal weapons. It still remains too be seen if I get on or not. (Damn budget cuts). But if single action is allowed them I'm going to carry a 1911. :)
 
For some reason, to me, an officer wearing old slabsides commands more respect than one packing a tactical black wunder crunchenticker.
But thats just me.
1911s are sometimes carried here in Utah. I have seen them on the hips of law men up and down the wasatch front. Usually the guys carrying them have the look about them that "they know the face of there fathers" and are not guys I would want to mess with. Now then you have the Gargoyle or Oakley wearing swatpup guy with a buzz cut that has that IN GLOCK WE TRUST look that thinks he is robo-cop.
And while I am at it - in some counties - namely Uinta and Duchesne there are the other types that give all cops a bad name... they swagger with a john wayne like effort and if they had there choice would rather go around like COBRA. They seriously make me sick. Maybe it has something to do with being pulled over for 2 MPH over on the highway... or my brother in law for 4... or the dog catcher that came into the yard to bait Iger to come after him so he could cage her... then come to the house while 30 other people are there to arrest my mother in law for a late traffic ticket... Sorry - got on a rant there. Boy to I dislike Vernal City and Uinta county...
 
Four cons
1. Under stress a 4.5 lb trigger pull feels more like .5 lb
2. Manual safety
3. Grip safety
4. Requires more practice=$$$
 
mdcalvert: Are you referring to that photo

in the Street Survival book? The one with the dead officer who left the safety of his Smith 9mm 'ON'? THAT was a STAGED picture meant to convey a 'what if' situation. IOW, if you're going to carry that way, TRAIN that way.

AFAIK, no LEO has been killed forgetting to 'off' his safety. I do know of several documented instances where a BG with a stolen gun missed the safety, allowing the GG to get the better of him. The first shooting by a new CCW holder in Florida was just such an occurrence. IIRC, the BG had a pilfered Smith M39 that he used to try and rob a cabbie. It wouldn't fire. The cabbie then reflexively off-ed the safety on his Gov't. Model and used it.:)
 
What about all the Glocks?

If your Chief is concerned about the 1911, what about all the agencies carrying Glocks?

My agency carries the Glock 22 (off-duty G-27). They are fine firearms, very accurate and reliable BUT the stock trigger pull is a short length 5.5 pounds and there is no manual safety on the gun at all, other than the trigger tab.

There are literally hundreds of local, state and federal agencies carrying the Glock.

I don't fault your Chief for being concerned about the 1911, but I think it's important to be consistent. The Glock and the 1911 are roughly equivalent in the ease with which one can make them go bang, but the 1911 at least has a grip safety and the manual safety.

Also, the bit about the soccer moms being concerned about cocked hammers I think is mostly baloney. I think most soccer moms know nothing about guns and don't care to, unless they are shooters themselves. Also, if you're carrying concealed, who's going to see the hammer anyway?

Good luck. If I had my druthers, I'd rather carry a 1911 or a large bore revolver. Incidentally, I think the Dixon, California police department at one time issued and authorized ONLY 1911s as the duty gun. That may have changed, since I heard that from a guy who was being interviewed for that department about 10 years ago, but at that time, the department gun was the 1911 with no options.
 
ctrlaltdel said:

Four cons
1. Under stress a 4.5 lb trigger pull feels more like .5 lb
So a Glock trigger would feel like .8 and a DAO would feel like .12. Anyway you look at it if you stick your finger on the trigger before you are ready to shoot then there will be problems. A 12 lbs. double action trigger can be accidentally discharged too, if you aren't trained right. So for those who aren't safety conscious or don't like to train give them a DAO, but I usually see them get issued Glocks. So go figure. :)

2. Manual safety
Not hard to take off at all. We assume cops will fumble with a manual safety and die because why? We assume they are smart enough to drive a high powered car at mach speeds through residential neighborhoods, interview witnesses, give CPR, operate a computer, and file a report. Those all seem more complicated than moving your thumb up or down.

3. Grip safety
With modern beavertail grips all you have to do is hold the gun.

4. Requires more practice=$$
All guns require more practice. I'm by no means a great shooter, I have a long way to go before I consider myself "good." And I have been shooting since I was a little kid. I have fired umpteen million rounds of .22 rimfire, and I still can't even get close to the Leathams, Enoses, or Mickuleks that are out there. When I get to that level then I figure I'm good, and those guys probably spend a ridiculous amount of money shooting just to maintain their skills.

I have introduced lots of people to the world of shooting, and I'm not that great of a shooter. And as far as I can tell it takes a lot more practice for somebody to begin to get good hits with a heavy DAO pull, or a DA/SA pull, than it does for a pull that is easier and consistent.

Like I said earlier, I am not bashing Beretta. And I'm not bashing Glock, in fact two of the people who I introduced to shooting in the last year went with Glock because it was consistent and easy to use. If somebody wishes to carry those fine weapons then more power too them. What ever works. However for some of us what works best just happens to have a big scary hammer sticking out of it, and a thumb safety, and a light trigger. It may not be for every cop, but some of them are pretty smart, heck some of them are gun nuts, and I figure that they could handle it just fine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top