Exotic bullets?

[reloader28]

Heck, 98% of my shooting is with cast bullets. But I test and tweek until it does what I want it to do before I use it hunting.
They cost me basically nothing and perform as good as any premium bullet on the market, within 300yds (in 30-06). Never lost an animal and only one shot apiece.

If I'm shooting farther out, I switch to Hornady jacketed because of the faster speeds and longer range.

 

[Jim Watson]

I asked an elk hunter who shot Sierra boattails if he had the reported problem with core and jacket separation. He said he sometimes found them separately... in dead animals. Hmm.

Same guy who listened to all the stories about the need for a magnum on elk. He gleefully reported that neither his .30-06 or even .280 Rem. bullets bounced off their ribs as he had been led to expect.

 

[TimSr]

Maybe its overkill or maybe its a waste of money, but For all the money you put into a good hunt, even if its totally do it yourself, I'm going to use the best high performance, proven bullets I can find. I am a handloader, but even if I was buying premium factory ammo designed for big game, for the one, two, or three rounds you're actually going to fire on a hunt, it seems pretty minor compared to travel expense, tags and licenses and everything else you spend money on. Some guys spend hundreds of dollars for their deer hunt and then worry about the extra $10 for ammo because it might not be any better for ther hunt. I'll put those savings into high volume range ammo, but for hunt, I'll "waste" a few dollars more for the confidence that the ammo will always perform exactly as it's supposed to.

 

[Art Eatman]

I fully agree with the idea of the triviality of the incremental cost of premium ammo.

However, I have had 100% success in killing numerous critters over a bunch of years with non-premium ammo, so why should I expect that suddenly it won't work? "Bang, whop, plop," and Bambi goes all green-eyed: Why am I supposed to worry?

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Seems to me after reading this thread a bit. Many target there rifle with one grain weight and shoot that grain weight at anything and everything. Than wonder why the bullet failed in its advertized performance on their quarry. Its not the bullets fault that causes disappointment. It's shot placement that does. As I see it a bullet is a bullet. Pointed Soft points for hunting purposes from one manufacture to another are all basically the same. Its the manufactures advertizing hype that gets the consumer to think they have purchased something "better" than any other competitors marketed products.

 

[stagpanther]

I'm with Tim SR--what's a few extra bucks compared to having confidence in your cartridge? I'm also a hand-loader--in fact I almost never shoot anything but my own loads out of all my weapons. Shot placement IS everything--but optimal aim and impact in the field might not turn out to be what it is at the bench. Bullet types and construction vary greatly in type and complexity and will perform differently under a different range of velocities and impacted material hardnesses. I frequently call bullet manufacturers and usually they are happy to put a ballistics/design expert on the line to talk about their bullets and how they perform (good way to get inside scoop on powders and new load developments too).

 

[TimSr]

However, I have had 100% success in killing numerous critters over a bunch of years with non-premium ammo, so why should I expect that suddenly it won't work? "Bang, whop, plop," and Bambi goes all green-eyed: Why am I supposed to worry?

If your hunting the same critters, and it works, there's no need to worry. Most of us are reluctant to change what we know works, and are reluctant to experiment with something that might even work better. On the other hand, if you are shooting military FMJ at coyotes and groundhogs, or weekly hog hunts, and you're planning a once in a lifetime hunting trip away from home for a species you don't get to hunt at home, you might want to check with things that MIGHT work a little better for a few dollars more. I'm sure those early soldiers who effectively killed many men with iron balls from smooth bore muskets didn't see the point of those guys using soft lead balls from flintlock RIFLES.

 

[Gunplummer]

Every now and then someone would give me bullets to try out. Allegedly the newest and best deer droppers on the market. Most never made it past the range with me. If I have to fight to reload and get good groups, I don't need it. No joke, I usually had a hard time getting "Better" bullets to shoot well. Use what you want and be happy. It is always nice to have someone scaring deer towards you on a slow day.

 

[reloader28]

Maybe I should reread these posts, but I didnt see anyone testing the bullets themselves. Just taking somebody elses word for it that it will work.

I know that it is extremely rare for someone other than a caster or swager to test their bullets for performance.
I have seen as many so called "premium" bullets fail as the cheaper bullets. I think the biggest problem with bullets regardless of brand is nobody tests the performance for what they want it to do and at certain distance and speed. It does make a huge difference.

If your going to spend the extra money on a certain bullet, I think you should spend the extra few dollars to test them yourself instead of just believing what the manufacture says. Afterall, they are trying to sell a product.

 

[jmr40]

If you are using a caliber traditionally suitable for the game hunted and at reasonable ranges there is no need for the premium bullets. What they offer is better performance for the guy who only owns a 243 and has a once in a lifetime opportunity to elk hunt. Instead of paying $1,000 for a bigger gun he can spend 30 cents more per bullet and increase the performance of his 243 to a much more acceptable level.

For hunting purposes the high cost of the premiums is just not a concern. I can buy 200 standard C&C bullets for about $60. 200 premiums, either Partitions, Barnes, Accubonds or Ballistic Tips will be about 2X that or about $120. That is enough bullets to last me 2-4 years of load development, zeroing, practice and hunting. The $60 savings won't fill the tank on my truck. With the costs of everything else involved in hunting the cost of 1 tank of gas every few years is pretty irrelevent.

If you like to shoot 50-100 rounds down range on every range trip then it does add up. They aren't plinking bullets. But a pretty good argument can be made to just use 1 good premium bullet for everything. I know lots of guys who develop one load of 150 gr for deer, and another 180n gr load for elk and larger. A good 165 gr premium will do both jobs.

 

[stagpanther]

My guess is if you are an average eastern hunter and minute of deer at 100 yds or less is the majority of your shooting--premiums are not going to make much difference. I've seen hunters that come out to the range only once or twice a year to check their zero and as long as the group is within 5" at 100 yds they consider it good to go--to me that weapon/ammo is in-the-dumpster grade. Start reaching out to longer distances and that's when the performance of premium bullet designs really come into play--like the poster above said: know thy ballistics.

 

[globemaster3]

I guess what I am saying here, is don't worry so much about caliber (within reason) and concentrate on bullet placement.

The OP hit the nail on the head.

However, I have had 100% success in killing numerous critters over a bunch of years with non-premium ammo, so why should I expect that suddenly it won't work? "Bang, whop, plop," and Bambi goes all green-eyed: Why am I supposed to worry?

And Art's words of wisdom are equally valid and mirror my experience.

you might want to check with things that MIGHT work a little better for a few dollars more.

Better based on what? What you consider better is probably a lot different from someone else, based on numerous factors.

Bottom line: Bullet choice is as much a personal decision as choosing boxers vs briefs. If someone wants to spend their money on premium (or "exotic") bullets, more power to them. It's their money, their choice.

However, people (especially newbies to the sport) shouldn't be made to believe premium bullets are a must for success. With 99% of shots in the US happening at 100 yards or less, shooting a Remington Core-Lokt, Winchester Power Point, or Federal Blue Box is just as likely to yield the same result as someone handloading Barnes TTSX, Nosler Partitions, or Speer Gamekings.

What should dictate hunting bullet selection the most is what will shoot the most accurately in a given rifle. Having a premium or regular bullet doesn't matter if you cannot hit the vitals with it.

 

[Mike / Tx]

Maybe I should reread these posts, but I didnt see anyone testing the bullets themselves. Just taking somebody elses word for it that it will work.

I know that it is extremely rare for someone other than a caster or swager to test their bullets for performance.
I have seen as many so called "premium" bullets fail as the cheaper bullets. I think the biggest problem with bullets regardless of brand is nobody tests the performance for what they want it to do and at certain distance and speed. It does make a huge difference.

If your going to spend the extra money on a certain bullet, I think you should spend the extra few dollars to test them yourself instead of just believing what the manufacture says. Afterall, they are trying to sell a product.

I mentioned above that more often than not I am shooting the C&C type bullets. There ARE a few cases where I DO shoot a "PREMIUM" bullet, however even when I go that route, they are Nosler Partitions, which from the mid section forward are basically C&C. There ARE some instances in which something like the Partition is particularly better than your run of the mill cup and core. Couple of prime examples are my 25-06's standard. and Ackley version. Both run small diameter bullets out at high velocity (3100+fps) which most, not all, cup and core bullets have a rough time holding together on a 50yd shot. The Partitions however are so repeatable in performance it is almost boring, but they are about the best tool for the job, IF they group well.

Like jmr40 said, I spend the extra for these calibers and don't bat an eye, but I don't do it for everything as there is no need. I shoot the 115gr PArtition for everything in the standard 25, squirrels to mule deer. Actually to be honest I am just now working on the Partition loads for the AI version. I have been using the 120gr Solid Base, and Core Lokt with great success even on the shorter shots. But I am running out of both so I have no other choice if I want to continue with that weight. I however will also be trying the Speer Hot Core as well, but having shot them in the past in the standard version, I'm not going to hold my breath for them to hold together as well as the others.

As for testing, yes I do it and do it until I am satisfied, and that isn't something I take lightly. I am fortunate in one aspect with having feral hogs running amuk in our woods that I have a fairly ready source for actual field testing. (not only that but they eat good too) I also have some of the finest grained sand on our farm that most folks who have been there have seen. It is more or less like baby powder. Dumped into a 5gal bucket, and laid lenghtwise, it does a very good job of not only catching bullets, but also in giving repeatable performance time and time again. While I cannot observe the wound channel as one would in gel, I can lay out the recovered bullets and determine if they are expanding properly or not at extended ranges, or blowing up on close range shots, before actually trying them on game. It's not a perfect scientific trial, but it has shown almost identical results to bullets I have recovered in game over the past 30 something years.

 

[Old Stony]

Mike/Tx....I like the way you do your tests. I guess maybe I should be doing some of the same thing as I have the same sand here. I seldom recover a bullet from a hog as some pass right through and I don't process the whole animal, just the hind legs and sometimes backstraps.
I have dropped a BIG bunch of them with the .223 FMJ's, but lately had a couple that didn't drop in thier tracks. I have shot a couple lately that were probably close to the 300# range that made it a distance from me. I just found one yesterday ( with the help of some buzzards) that I had shot two nights previously. He went down, got up and ran off when I shot him, but doubled back and I found him in the thick brush less than 50 yds from the box stand I shot him from.
I am starting to experiment with a Savage 16 .308 that I am going to try my night vision on as soon as I finish working up a load for it. I've shot targets with it twice and the loads are starting to show progress. I am going to try the Sierra 165 Game King's with it and see if I can get more pass through penetration. Maybe I should try your bucket of sand tests with those?

 

[TimSr]

Bottom line: Bullet choice is as much a personal decision as choosing boxers vs briefs. If someone wants to spend their money on premium (or "exotic") bullets, more power to them. It's their money, their choice.

Bullet choice is one of the more widely and publically discussed topics among shooters everwhere so it can't be THAT personal. This topic was posted on a public forum for discussion. I don't see all that many internet forum discussions on underwear choices, and while I'd openly discuss bullets with a stranger, if you wanted to discuss your underwear with me, it would creep me out. I'm not aware of any states regulating your hunting underwear, but many do regulate your "very personal bullet choice" for certain game animals.

 

[jmr40]

Flint arrowheads and round lead balls kill just as effectively as they ever did. Not many use those anymore, even those who choose to hunt with long bows and muzzle loaders. We all eventually move along to better stuff as it becomes available and proves its self. Remember, the concept of a jacketed cup and core bullet was revolutionary at one time too.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

By "personal," he doesn't mean that the issue is private, but that the issue is individualistic, as in each shooter having a personal preference as to what they like.

This thread has started to come across as one of those, "If you don't hunt my way, you are hunting wrong threads." Sort of reminds me of the Pigman picking on his father, Dap, for shooting pigs in the head. Pigman keeps arguing that Dap doesn't need to shoot hogs in the head to kill them and that he shouldn't be doing it. Dap keeps right on killing hogs by shooting them in the head. No, he doesn't NEED to do that, but by golly it works for him.

You don't need an AR15 with a Photon, Ace Skeleton stock, 20 round magazine to launch 55 gr. FMJ bullets at a hog, but we all have a lot of personal preference as to what we like to shoot that works for us. Not picking on you OS, as my .223 AR15 with a Photon has a UNV20IR illuminator and MDVR on it as well, plus I use a 20 round mag.

The OP is right, there is a lot of made up garbage about what is needed to hunt hogs. It isn't that the hogs are that smart or that tough, but that hunters are that naive. I am apt to believe a lot of hunters (based on various attitudes expressed at the local store and here online) are more apt to take a crappy shot at a hog and blame the ammo or the claimed toughness of the hog for the hog running away they they would do for a deer. Apparently, hogs don't deserve certain considerations for some reason that are afforded to other animals.

I will say this, however, while it is silly to complain about gear that is too good, I would much rather see people complaining about naive hunters using gear that is more than necessary to do the job and getting the job done than using gear insufficient for the job. There is some gee-whiz ammo out there, varmint loads, and some calibers that are just wrong for the jobs that hunters are trying to do with them.

Personally, I like it when people use premium ammo, because then their excuse stories are much more interesting for why they failed to drop an animal. Using premium ammo removes the validity of the ammo excuse since they bought the ammo and they think it is all that and a bag of chips.

Old Stony, like it or not, hunting is not a science for many or maybe most hunters. It is a religion - a very faith-based religion where the hunters buy their magic bullets, magic rifles, magic scopes, magic clothing, often fail to sight-in properly (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401369&highlight=sight), and often make shots they are praying will connect with the target. After all, the prey is often a creature of mythical capabilities requiring magic and faith.

As my friend says, "That hog/deer/bobcat/coyote didn't get that big by being dumb." To which I always reply, "No Jimmyjoebob, he got that big by eating."

 

[Crankylove]

With 2 exceptions, all if my big game animals have been taken with standard cup and core, "cheap" bullets.

2 speed goats taken with 140 grain Ballisitic tips, and the bullet worked great.

Everything else had been 130/165 grain Core-lokt, or 250 grain Speer Hot-Cor.

The premium bullets certainly worked well, but the animal was just as dead with the standard bullets.

Different strokes for different folks. What works for me................works for ME.

Your experiences/expectations may be different gotta find what works for you.

 

[globemaster3]

By "personal," he doesn't mean that the issue is private, but that the issue is individualistic, as in each shooter having a personal preference as to what they like.

Spot on! Thank you, DNS!

Are the points equating the technological leap from smooth bore to rifled, round balls to minies to cup/core really applicable here when we are talking premium vs standard bullets? Looking back, it is easy to see the vast improvement each of the older technologies had, but are we really equating going from a Core-Lokt to a Ballistic Tip to be equally revolutionary? Aren't they just improvements on the same theme?

I guess I just see the other improvements as being more "revolutionary" than changing from exposed lead to a plastic tip on a cup/core or bonding the core to the jacket IMHO.

Hogs... So much discussion when it is so elementary... Assuming a hunting bullet, in an appropriate caliber, put the bullet where it belongs and most often, it will equal a dead hog. But, the animal always gets a vote...

Hey TimSr, parting shot! Presidents and presidential candidates tackled the boxers vs briefs question on national TV, so it can't be that taboo. And who can forget Bob Dole's response? "Depends"...