Exit or not
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Jack O'Conner
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My 44 MAG carbine shoots Hornady XTP hollow tip bullets quite well. They expand to flat shape of approx .75 caliber and NEVER exit. But every deer I've ever shot with this ammo went down quickly. Damage to chest organs is ghastly indeed. Some muzzle-loader hunters use this identical bullet within modern sabots.
My 30-30 carbine and .308 rifle typically produce exit wounds but the internal organ damage is also quite ghastly.
MAGNUM rifles often send their speedy bullets right through the animal. Its common for these animals to bound away 100 yards or more before toppling over. This an extreme example of wrong thickness of bullet jacket for the intended prey.
In summary, exit wounds are not related to mortal damage to the chest organs. Exit wounds may provide a blood trail but whether this is an adavantage or not is a variable factor. For example, a large muley shot at dusk may bound away into the forest and topple over. Truley, if the animal is left overnight, coyotes will devour everything but the head and major bones. In this situation, a heavy blood trail is advantageous to speedy recovery of the animal.
Jack
My 30-30 carbine and .308 rifle typically produce exit wounds but the internal organ damage is also quite ghastly.
MAGNUM rifles often send their speedy bullets right through the animal. Its common for these animals to bound away 100 yards or more before toppling over. This an extreme example of wrong thickness of bullet jacket for the intended prey.
In summary, exit wounds are not related to mortal damage to the chest organs. Exit wounds may provide a blood trail but whether this is an adavantage or not is a variable factor. For example, a large muley shot at dusk may bound away into the forest and topple over. Truley, if the animal is left overnight, coyotes will devour everything but the head and major bones. In this situation, a heavy blood trail is advantageous to speedy recovery of the animal.
Jack
coloradosherpa
New member
Ok I see where this is going. Let's start from the top shall we?
"If you open both holes and turn the can upside down such that both holes are flooded, then one the scheme of one letting air in and one letting fluid out falls apart."
I disagree. The can isn't turned upside down and NEITHER is the deer. You can contort what I wrote all you want, but thats the plain truth of it. As for needing one hole higher than the other to let air in one and blood out the other, why would one have to be higher? And why do you assume that the blood would have to know which hole to flow out of? When you have two holes the vast majority of your bleeding comes from the exit wound. You have a slug punching a hole through the animal at a high rate of speed. You also have outside air rushing in the first hole opened (the entry wound) and all this combines to cause the blood to flow out the opposite hole. This is pretty much common sense stuff to anyone who's ever skinned out a deer with entry and exit holes. And the phrase I used about one hole to let cold air in and the other to let blood out, I did not coin the phrase. It is Elmer Keith's phrase and I imagine he killed more big game in his life than all of us combined.
this is wisdom:
"In summary, exit wounds are not related to mortal damage to the chest organs. Exit wounds may provide a blood trail but whether this is an adavantage or not is a variable factor. "
Exit wounds are not necessary to cause tissue damage/blood loss (as I said previously) but penetrating will give a better blood trail. I cannot think of a time when a better blood trail wouldn't be appreciated though. In any event, they are nice but not necessary to kill something.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
"What nonsense. The day you show me a softball sized hole through a deer made by a .22 rim fire is when I read all the facts and meaningless figures you wrote. Don't start with the expansion talk either, I never saw a .22 centerfire expand to 5 inches. I would not be surprised if the side of the deer was parting before the bullet even hit it."
A 22 CF does not need to make a hole that big to kill something. A 22 CF that punches clean through with min. expansion will kill one just as dead. Like I said, the energy has nothing to do with the animal dying, it is TISSUE DAMAGE/BLOOD LOSS. If a 22 caliber round CF or RF had just enough velocity/energy to punch clean through the vitals with min. expansion then it would kill just as dead as a 22 round going 4000fps. It may not blow up in such spectacular fashion on contact like the higher velocity rounds, but the deer will be just as dead. The shrapnel from the higher velocity round will create lots of tissue damage and blood loss, but if the animal runs a ways, you will not have as good a blood trail.
Now, in conclusion:
Either school of thought will produce dead animals, assuming we are talking about thin skinned "big" game, like white tails and pronghorns. Which you choose is solely up to you. I'm over this.
"If you open both holes and turn the can upside down such that both holes are flooded, then one the scheme of one letting air in and one letting fluid out falls apart."
I disagree. The can isn't turned upside down and NEITHER is the deer. You can contort what I wrote all you want, but thats the plain truth of it. As for needing one hole higher than the other to let air in one and blood out the other, why would one have to be higher? And why do you assume that the blood would have to know which hole to flow out of? When you have two holes the vast majority of your bleeding comes from the exit wound. You have a slug punching a hole through the animal at a high rate of speed. You also have outside air rushing in the first hole opened (the entry wound) and all this combines to cause the blood to flow out the opposite hole. This is pretty much common sense stuff to anyone who's ever skinned out a deer with entry and exit holes. And the phrase I used about one hole to let cold air in and the other to let blood out, I did not coin the phrase. It is Elmer Keith's phrase and I imagine he killed more big game in his life than all of us combined.
this is wisdom:
"In summary, exit wounds are not related to mortal damage to the chest organs. Exit wounds may provide a blood trail but whether this is an adavantage or not is a variable factor. "
Exit wounds are not necessary to cause tissue damage/blood loss (as I said previously) but penetrating will give a better blood trail. I cannot think of a time when a better blood trail wouldn't be appreciated though. In any event, they are nice but not necessary to kill something.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
"What nonsense. The day you show me a softball sized hole through a deer made by a .22 rim fire is when I read all the facts and meaningless figures you wrote. Don't start with the expansion talk either, I never saw a .22 centerfire expand to 5 inches. I would not be surprised if the side of the deer was parting before the bullet even hit it."
A 22 CF does not need to make a hole that big to kill something. A 22 CF that punches clean through with min. expansion will kill one just as dead. Like I said, the energy has nothing to do with the animal dying, it is TISSUE DAMAGE/BLOOD LOSS. If a 22 caliber round CF or RF had just enough velocity/energy to punch clean through the vitals with min. expansion then it would kill just as dead as a 22 round going 4000fps. It may not blow up in such spectacular fashion on contact like the higher velocity rounds, but the deer will be just as dead. The shrapnel from the higher velocity round will create lots of tissue damage and blood loss, but if the animal runs a ways, you will not have as good a blood trail.
Now, in conclusion:
Either school of thought will produce dead animals, assuming we are talking about thin skinned "big" game, like white tails and pronghorns. Which you choose is solely up to you. I'm over this.
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Gunplummer
New member
A .22 rim fire through the vitals will kill a deer, sooner or later. Anybody that butchered a lot of deer has probably found all types of foreign objects in them, especially .22 rim fire bullets. We found a lot of buckshot over the years too. The meat and skin grows back over the foreign object if the deer is lucky. I recently shot a deer I had to throw away, bullet hole about 2" above the bottom of the belly and straight through. The whole back of the deer was infected and it had about 1" of jelled blood laying in the body cavity. It was going to die anyway, glad I shot it. I suspect if that had been a high velocity hollow point, that deer would have been found. When I was a kid I hunted squirrels with .22 short hollow points because they were cheap. You hit one in the neck or head and it did not blow the head off. Try that with a .22 long rifle hollow point. High energy bullets make a difference.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Right, the can isn't turned upside down and neither is the deer. However, the way that a gas can works is by pressure equalization of the poured liquid from an enclosed system. One hole is below the level of the fluid in the can and one hole is above the fluid during pouring.
So when you shoot a deer, which hole is below the blood level and when hole is above the blood level in the deer? Both are below. So the pour example doesn't really work for deer. You don't have one hole below the top level of the blood and another hole above than in an air cavity of the deer such that the hole in the air cavity will draw in air as gravity drains the blood from the hole below.
When you shoot a deer and get total penetration, then you have two holes that are both below the level of blood in the body, just like turning a gas can completely upside down. You don't get any pour effect as you would get with pouring gas from a gas can.
When you shoot a closed full container such as a gas can (with water, not gas inside) and have the shot passes all the way through where both holes are below the level of the fluid, does one hole let air in and one hole fluid out as you claim? Nope, and it doesn't work that way on a deer either. Both holes will try to let air in and let fluid out at the same time.
You are right, this is fairly common sense stuff.
Elmer Keith might have claimed that one hole lets blood out and one hole lets air in, but if that is the case Elmer Keith didn't understand fluid dynamics and pressure equalization.
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coloradosherpa
New member
whatever 
Must be some sort of pressure at work in there....Double Naught Spy
New member
Right, because the blood flow exiting the body isn't being replaced by air entering the body. Your body is not rigid like a gas can. The system is under pressure from the heart, as you know, and the deer's body is able to collapse in volume as it loses fluid, something the gas can cannot do. As a rigid structure, for fluid to leave the gas can, an equal volume of air needs to replace the fluid that is lost. This is accomplished on the old style cans with two holes - one of which is the larger pour hole that is flooded during pouring and the other is the vent hole that is kept dry, exposed to the air pocket in the can so that air can be drawn in above as fluid leaves below.
If there is only one hole or if both holes are flooded, then neither serves a sole function. The fluid will not readily pour from the can, but will gurgle out as some fluid leaves and then ceases when the negative pressure inside the can created by the fluid having left is such that it draws in air.
If two holes were necessary for bleeding out to occur (one to let blood out and one to let air in), then we could not have singular wounds like markj had that produced a large amount of blood.
If there is only one hole or if both holes are flooded, then neither serves a sole function. The fluid will not readily pour from the can, but will gurgle out as some fluid leaves and then ceases when the negative pressure inside the can created by the fluid having left is such that it draws in air.
If two holes were necessary for bleeding out to occur (one to let blood out and one to let air in), then we could not have singular wounds like markj had that produced a large amount of blood.