Executioners Wearing Out Their Pistols?

M

MoscowMike

New member
I've been reading 'WWII Behind Closed Doors', a book which will goes into detail about the cynical decisions made by the Allied leaders and Hitler before and during WWII. Lots of fascinating information, but a gun related point is provided by a Russian general about the executions of Polish officers in 1940 by the NKVD, generally known as the Katyn Forest Massacre (pp 56-57).

He says that one group of several thousand were shot in the back of the head, one at a time, in the Kalinin prison. They found that they could only 'process' about 250 per night, and had problems because they were wearing out their pistols. The general said they switched to Walthers because they were better than the standard Red Army issue pistols, presumably Tokarev and Nagants, but they still became worn with so much use and had to provide suitcases of replacements for the executioner.

Setting aside the whole disgusting execution issue, it seems odd that they would be wearing out pistols. Even if they only had one firing maybe 300 shots per night that doesn't seem like substantial use.

I suppose they could have been badly maintained or worn out already. The author is reporting on a BBC interview with NKVD General Dmitry Tokarev who ran the operation, so he may be misunderstanding what was said, but the image of suitcases of replacement pistols is pretty specific - and very sad.
 
Sounds like embellishment by someone who wanted to make themselves appear superior. No way even a cheap barrel is going to wear out after 250 rounds, especially when there is no accuracy needed. From my understanding the German pistols were preferred not because of barrel wear, but because the Russian guns had too much recoil, which made shooting painful after the first dozen executions. The process they used to execute the prisoners was also a determining factor as to why it was difficult to execute more than 250 a night. IMHO, this was a major war crime, committed against POWs that voluntarily surrendered, police officers and civilians. Those that were executed were picked because they could not be induced to adopt a pro-Soviet attitude.
 
The only barrel I’ve ever heard of wearing out that fast was the barrel in “Little Boy”, which “wore out “ in 1 shot. :D

But in all seriousness, I took a class from a professional sniper who religiously swapped out his ultra flat shooting 6mm rifle at exactly 1200 rounds. He indicated that was early for most people but this was how he made his living.
 
Our views on how long a pistol should last are sort of different from the pre-WWII ideas.

It was rare (still is rare, just not AS rare) for people to shoot thousands of rounds through a pistol.

So I could see the pistols wearing out/breaking a lot sooner than a modern shooter might expect. But the idea that one would need "suitcases" of pistols to shoot "several thousand" shots still doesn't make any sense.

Let's say that the pistols would only hold up to 2,000 rounds each. You'd need 5 of them to fire 10,000 rounds, which is a reasonable guess at what "several thousand" would be. Not exactly a suitcase full, and I'm not sold on the idea that a Nagant or a Tokarev would be worn out after 2,000 rounds. Especially given the intended use. All it needs to do is go bang; accuracy is unimportant.

Perhaps the comment was originally about suitcases of ammunition and it got twisted somehow.
 
My first Hi-Power, which was an updated 1990s version with several significant design upgrades, had its first parts failure at around 13,100 rounds. Given that’s a 1935 design and just randomly saying the modern productions doubled its serviceable life, that’s still 6,050 rounds per pistol circa 1935.

While I’d certainly agree that our standards for acceptable service life are dramatically different from the Katyn Forest era, I can’t imagine “suitcases of pistols” being necessary.

Having dealt with the Russians a few times, if there are records “documenting” this, I’d guess it has more to do with diverting supplies to the secondary market than an actual shortcoming.
 
How widespread were Tokarevs in 1940? How durable are Nagant revolvers?

In the West, Nagant revolvers have typically been unpopular, and generally expensive to purchase or expensive to shoot, with brief overlaps of otherwise.

Do we really know how they fare long term?

A Tokarev seems like it would take some work to wear out.
 
We'll never know what really happened. My source is an author's interpretation of a video interview of a man more than fifty years after the event.

Hard to say which Walthers they would have used, and FrankenMauser's thought about getting dirty may be accurate. Wear could have meant problems with magazines as well. I don't expect the NKVD executioners were great at maintenance.

Interesting story, though. It was a terrible time, and a good reminder of how terribly governments, and people, can behave when they have the power.
 
Lavrenty Beria’s life is fairly well documented. He definitely preferred Walthers; but I’m curious to see the historical support for this contention.
 
I have read those stories, again, is there any documentation ?
In Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting Ed McGivern has pictures of tight bench rest groups fired out of S&W K-22s with over 200,000 rounds through, target velocity lead bullets of course.
Wearing out a semiauto pistol ? IIRC the Red Army-and NKVD-had ordnance men who knew something repairing firearms and restoring them to serviceability. The fixed barrel of the Walthers would require some tools and skills, the Tokarev has a drop-in barrel.
 
The shootings of the Polish officers was carried out by Stalin's favorite executioner, Vasily Blokhin.
He arrived in Poland with a suitcase full of Walther Model 2 pistols, and a large amount of GECO .25 ACP-6.35 ammunition.
He chose GECO because of it's perceived higher quality and reliability.

This executioner did most of the shooting himself starting at sundown and lasting to dawn, where upon he and his assistants had a nice breakfast feast.

The same man did almost all the executions at Lubyanka Prison at night.
He started wearing hip boots, long gloves, an ankle length rain coat and a fisherman's rubber hat to keep the splattered blood off him.
It seems he liked to attend the opera and ballet after his nights work was done and he didn't like showing up with blood on his tux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

The same type Walther Model 2 pistols were used in the Nazi extermination camp at Birkenau by the SS.
They ordered special downloaded ammunition for them so they could shoot people in the back of the neck and not have the bullet exit and risk a bullet bouncing off the stone and brick walls.
Witnesses reported that the only sound was a "CLICK" as the gun fired.

Next to Blokhin SS member Otto Moll was suspected of having personally killed more then 20,000 people during his SS career.
He often personally shot "short transports" of arrivals at Birkenau when too few arrived to fill a gas chamber.
He also enjoyed using his 9mm pistol to see how many people standing in a line that he could shoot through.

The extermination camp gas chambers were set up because Himmler realized that shooting men, women, and children was affecting his SS men and resulting in alcoholism and mental problems.
Stalin's killers apparently didn't have such problems.
I read a book that discussed a group of 6 KGB men who shot something on the order of 25,000 people in a Ukrainian city.
 
Dfariswheel said:
The shootings of the Polish officers was carried out by Stalin's favorite executioner, Vasily Blokhin.
He arrived in Poland with a suitcase full of Walther Model 2 pistols, and a large amount of GECO .25 ACP-6.35 ammunition.
He chose GECO because of it's perceived higher quality and reliability.

This executioner did most of the shooting himself starting at sundown and lasting to dawn, where upon he and his assistants had a nice breakfast feast.

The same man did almost all the executions at Lubyanka Prison at night.
He started wearing hip boots, long gloves, an ankle length rain coat and a fisherman's rubber hat to keep the splattered blood off him.
It seems he liked to attend the opera and ballet after his nights work was done and he didn't like showing up with blood on his tux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

The same type Walther Model 2 pistols were used in the Nazi extermination camp at Birkenau by the SS.
They ordered special downloaded ammunition for them so they could shoot people in the back of the neck and not have the bullet exit and risk a bullet bouncing off the stone and brick walls.
Witnesses reported that the only sound was a "CLICK" as the gun fired.

Next to Blokhin SS member Otto Moll was suspected of having personally killed more then 20,000 people during his SS career.
He often personally shot "short transports" of arrivals at Birkenau when too few arrived to fill a gas chamber.
He also enjoyed using his 9mm pistol to see how many people standing in a line that he could shoot through.

The extermination camp gas chambers were set up because Himmler realized that shooting men, women, and children was affecting his SS men and resulting in alcoholism and mental problems.
Stalin's killers apparently didn't have such problems.
I read a book that discussed a group of 6 KGB men who shot something on the order of 25,000 people in a Ukrainian city.
Click to expand...
Stalin's killers may have had problems too...Blokhin supposedly committed suicide in 1955....of course, how can one put their trust in the "official" Soviet report?
 
Vasily Blokhin;

He reportedly sank into alcoholism and serious mental illness, and died on 3 February 1955, with the official cause of death listed as "suicide"
Click to expand...

One must wonder how evil a mind must be to enjoy shooting 7000 men and women in the back of the head for no reason other than ethnic cleansing. Gotta be a special place in hell for him.
 
... for no reason other than...
Click to expand...

I think when one dismisses the "other" reasons, one distorts the picture.

Duty, honor, sometimes even love of country can work on both sides of moral right and wrong. And THEN you add in individuals with the morals of a snake, and it gets even more complicated.

I think that "wearing out their pistols" is most likely a mis-translation, or a literal translation of a Russian idiom or phrase, probably from an individual using it to make a dramatic or colorful point. I don't think it was meant to be taken that they, literally, fired their pistols until they were too worn, and no longer worked.
 
44 AMP said:
I think when one dismisses the "other" reasons, one distorts the picture.

Duty, honor, sometimes even love of country can work on both sides of moral right and wrong. And THEN you add in individuals with the morals of a snake, and it gets even more complicated.

I think that "wearing out their pistols" is most likely a mis-translation, or a literal translation of a Russian idiom or phrase, probably from an individual using it to make a dramatic or colorful point. I don't think it was meant to be taken that they, literally, fired their pistols until they were too worn, and no longer worked.
Click to expand...
"a riddle, inside a mystery, wrapped in an enigma"...this was Churchill's opinion of the Soviet Union, and frustration with Stalin, when allied with the Soviets during WWII.

The killing of the Polish officers and intellectuals at Katyn and other venues was not ethnic cleansing but reflected Stalin's paranoia and mistrust of possible future political opposition and enemies. Stalin is totally to blame for these murders.

Blokhin, however mentally unstable, was following orders and it may have been another "someone had to do it" compulsion....again, as was mentioned, we will never know the whole truth.
 
The killing of the Polish officers and intellectuals at Katyn and other venues was not ethnic cleansing...
Click to expand...

I think it might be arguable, though I will agree it was not "ethnic cleansing" in the usual sense, as done by others...it was certainly "ideological cleansing".

Stalin was not in the least bit shy or hesitant about killing or imprisoning anyone he suspected might possibly consider disagreeing with him, and the Katyn Massacre was essentially a "freebie". Not only did it remove people who were politically "unreliable" if it ever were discovered, the world would blame the Nazis, (which they did for a long time) so for Stalin, it was a win/win.

One might make the case that since those killed were Poles, not Russians, (or even Soviets) it was "ethnic", but one could make that point about the entire war,.

DO remember that Stalin had nearly all the officers he sent to Spain killed or imprisoned after their return from the Spanish Civil War, because they were potentially "contaminated" by Western ideas.

Hitler, on the other hand, promoted and awarded those who fought in Spain (Kondor Legion) , and used them to teach their experience to the rest of his military.
 
Going back to the book, the author says he got the details from a video of a 1991 interview of General Dmitry Tokarev by a Russian military prosecutor when he was 88. The reference note simply says that the BBC obtained a copy of the video. A quick internet search for the video gave no useful results, although a Ukranian site also references it.

It would be interesting to see exactly what Tokarev said, but without access to the video and a good Russian translator I don't know how we can.

Dfariswheel says the Blokhin arrived with a suitcase of Walthers, and Tokarev may well have just assumed he needed spares.

When I was studying history in college the Soviets still denied that they had anything to do with the massacre. That didn't change until 1990. Apparently the interview with General Tokarev was part of the investigation.
 
Up until the fall of the Soviet Union the "party line" was that the Soviet Union won WWII without any help, from anyone. (some French act the same way, but they aren't right, either...:rolleyes:)

Even to the point where Soviet soldiers and airmen were forbidden to mention use of US made supplies and equipment at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top