Do you know if the rifle was checked with a field gauge? Since its a ex-military rifle it would have a more generous chamber to be able to function in the grit and grime of combat.While a no go gauge reveals excessive headspace a field gauge may show that the rifle is still safe to shoot.
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Excessive Head Space - need advice
- Thread starter Kawfeegod
- Start date
no-go gage indicates excessive head space, new unfired cases are shot in rifles with excessive head space ONCE, after that apply the 'LEAVER POLICY' once the case has been fire formed to the chamber and the shoulder has moved out LEAVER OUT, do not size the case back to minimum length, that constitutes travel, I am a big fan of reducing case travel.
If a rifles is said to have excessive head space declaring the chamber field reject length does not make it safe and on the 30/06 there was no generous chambers, the M1 Garand had a generous chamber, it did not use small base cases, instead the chamber opening was .0002 thousands larger in diameter than the 03 and M1917.
F. Guffey
If a rifles is said to have excessive head space declaring the chamber field reject length does not make it safe and on the 30/06 there was no generous chambers, the M1 Garand had a generous chamber, it did not use small base cases, instead the chamber opening was .0002 thousands larger in diameter than the 03 and M1917.
F. Guffey
I make gages, I can make one gage that replaces the go, no and beyond gages for the M1917 or a set that would cover all the numbers from -.017 below the go-gage to .011 beyond to infinity.
F. Guffey, what would you charge for a set?
I guess I am still at a loss. I will try another smith to see if I can get a better price, otherwise I guess I will try to sell it.
If you do not reload most of what has been said is foreign to you, I determine head space first then form cases to fit and then fire, I do not have a clue what a 'ton of work' is. I will form cases for your 30/06 chamber that will be marked in '+', starting at +.010 (no-go gage +.001) to +.016 (field reject gage) +.002).
If you were familiar with depth micrometers or the versatile dial indicator I could send you ONE +.020 instead, with the dial caliper or depth micrometer head space can be determined in .000 (thousands) from .000 to +.020 on the M1917. simple reason, head space is A - B = C or the difference between two measurements, I am not particular as to how or where these two measurements come from.
If you have a dial caliper or height gage you can determine the effect the bolt has on head space, knowing this AND convincing someone it can be done when ordering a bolt that could fit is the though part, all that is required is to have the ability to measure the distance from the bolt face to the back of the lugs, to do this requires a cylinder that would allow the bolt to stand on it's face and a flat surface and or course a depth gage or dial caliper. The measurement is for comparison meaning the information is nice to know when done on one bolt, the information becomes useful when compared to the information of another bolt as in 'does one bolt have more or less effect than another bolt when compared, the effect will be in thousands.
E-mail ( if I can help PM)
F. Guffey
If you were familiar with depth micrometers or the versatile dial indicator I could send you ONE +.020 instead, with the dial caliper or depth micrometer head space can be determined in .000 (thousands) from .000 to +.020 on the M1917. simple reason, head space is A - B = C or the difference between two measurements, I am not particular as to how or where these two measurements come from.
If you have a dial caliper or height gage you can determine the effect the bolt has on head space, knowing this AND convincing someone it can be done when ordering a bolt that could fit is the though part, all that is required is to have the ability to measure the distance from the bolt face to the back of the lugs, to do this requires a cylinder that would allow the bolt to stand on it's face and a flat surface and or course a depth gage or dial caliper. The measurement is for comparison meaning the information is nice to know when done on one bolt, the information becomes useful when compared to the information of another bolt as in 'does one bolt have more or less effect than another bolt when compared, the effect will be in thousands.
E-mail ( if I can help PM)
F. Guffey
I do not have a clue what a 'ton of work' is.
That's not exactly what I said. But,
More work than I want to do. And, I already have everything to do it with. Might have done it 30 years ago just to be doing it though.
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I will get flak for this, but have you fired the rifle at all? If so, what did the cases look like? Having heard and read more BS about headspace than any other topic, if the rifle doesn't show signs of tampering or rechambering, I am inclined to just touch off a couple of rounds and see what the cases look like. If I don't see signs of stretched or distorted cases, I don't sweat it.
I hate to be suspicious of fellow gunsmiths, but there are a few who will always tell a customer his rifle has excess headspace so they can sell him a barrel job.
Jim
I hate to be suspicious of fellow gunsmiths, but there are a few who will always tell a customer his rifle has excess headspace so they can sell him a barrel job.
Jim
If you do not reload most of what has been said is foreign to you
I do quite a bit of reloading and know my way around micrometers and dial calipers (not a machinist but play one on TV. Quite a bit of machine tools at my disposal, and I can use em too!) So I do understand quite a bit of what you are saying.
No flak. I have not fired the rifle, yet. It was suggested to me that I head space the rifle first. I have taken a few other guns to this smith and this is the first time he has found a serious problem. I don't think he would be one to try to screw anyone.but have you fired the rifle at all?
Yup. I will be sending you one.E-mail ( if I can help PM)
I did get another price for the rechambering today. $125. A little better, but....
I think I might try to find a better bolt with F. Guffey's help and see if that might not fix the problem.
Was there not a serial number range that had poor heat treating,or was that the '03 model.
You are thinking about certain early 1903's. The 1917's were all extremely tough.
There is one potential problem with the cost of headspacing a 1917 though. One of the manufacturers (either Eddystone or Remington - I don't remember which) screwed the barrels in so hard that getting them out is a REAL pain. That could be why this gunsmith was quoting such a high price.
I will get flak for this, but have you fired the rifle at all? If so, what did the cases look like? Having heard and read more BS about headspace than any other topic, if the rifle doesn't show signs of tampering or rechambering, I am inclined to just touch off a couple of rounds and see what the cases look like. If I don't see signs of stretched or distorted cases, I don't sweat it.
I agree with you 100% Jim. I may catch some flak for this well but Ive never had any of my rifles headspaced and some of the rifles I shoot are over 100 years old. I remotely fire them and then if the cases appear to fine I shoot them normally.When I did notice any weird looking cases I just took the rifles to my gunsmith to have them checked out and only once did I encounter a headspace problem (tight chamber on a 1916 Spanish Mauser which resulted in an extremely hard to open bolt).
Id suggest shooting the rifle remotely and checking the cases thoroughly after firing to see if theres any deformation.
headspace
You will also have to disclose that there is excessive head space and take a hit on the sale.
If you like the rifle, have the work done.
If you fail to disclose, and the gun has a serious problem, you will be liable-in your MIND- at least. And in FACT if it is found you knew abt the problem.
just a thought.
You will also have to disclose that there is excessive head space and take a hit on the sale.
If you like the rifle, have the work done.
If you fail to disclose, and the gun has a serious problem, you will be liable-in your MIND- at least. And in FACT if it is found you knew abt the problem.
just a thought.
You will also have to disclose that there is excessive head space and take a hit on the sale.
If you like the rifle, have the work done.
If you fail to disclose, and the gun has a serious problem, you will be liable-in your MIND- at least. And in FACT if it is found you knew abt the problem.
just a thought.
Absolutely. Would not do it any other way.
Buying a bunch of bolts sometimes works. I tried this with a different rifle and got two bolt bodies that headspaced properly with the receiver and barrel combination. My situation was different though because one expects a bit of variation with the same gun manufactured in different places. I ended up using an Australian Bolt, Irish marked Barrel, and Indian Receiver on my Frankenstein Lee Enfield. If all parts are US, you may not have the same variation though with the M1917s, you have Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone variants.
IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous.
BTW, if a gunsmith is willing to set your M1917 barrel back one thread and recut everthing to spec for $150, take him up on it. The M1917 by reputation has barrels that tend to be over torqued, so even the safe removal is a bit more of a chore. (Should have read ALL the replies first. Others already pointed this out.)
This might also be the perfect candidate for a longer .30 cal cartridge because the actions I believe are long enough for something like a .300 H&H Magnum. Now THAT would be a classic sporter.
- Ivan.
IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous.
BTW, if a gunsmith is willing to set your M1917 barrel back one thread and recut everthing to spec for $150, take him up on it. The M1917 by reputation has barrels that tend to be over torqued, so even the safe removal is a bit more of a chore. (Should have read ALL the replies first. Others already pointed this out.)
This might also be the perfect candidate for a longer .30 cal cartridge because the actions I believe are long enough for something like a .300 H&H Magnum. Now THAT would be a classic sporter.
- Ivan.
IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous.
I agree. I am going to try the bolt thing first, with F. Guffey's help. If that does not work, then off to the gun smith.
This might also be the perfect candidate for a longer .30 cal cartridge because the actions I believe are long enough for something like a .300 H&H Magnum. Now THAT would be a classic sporter.
Yes the 1917 can handle way more than a 30-06. A-Square used that action for their huge magnum customs. A full magnum length cartridge such as the 300 H&H will require a longer magazine box (I have a 375 H&H 1917 in the works) 300 win mag would be an easy conversion. The magazine lip portion of the receiver would have to be opened up and the bolt face opened up too. Usually you can just use a P14 bolt as the 303brit has the same rim diameter as the belted magnums.
lots of options
Often the head spacing on military rifles was a little loose to allow for dirty or banged up ammo.
"Often the head spacing on military rifles was a little loose to allow for dirty or banged up ammo"
"IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous"
Hatcher modified a 30/06 chamber by moving the shoulder forward .125, he then chambered 30/06 ammo in the modified chamber and fired it, WHAT WAS THE DANGER? WHAT WAS THE RISK? Hatcher thought the case would fail or he had to eliminate the possibility the length of the chamber caused catastrophic failure.
Many 8mm57 rifles have been chambered to 8mm06, by mistake 8mm57 ammo has been chambered in the 8mm06 and fired, oddly? enough the difference between the 8mm57 and the 8mm06 is the same as the difference between the 30/06 and Hatcher's modified chamber, .125 plus about .003? The 8mm57 after firing was ejected as an 8mm06 with a short neck, the shoulder did not move forward, it was erased and became part of the case body, the neck became part of the shoulder and the case did not stretch? it got shorter.
The case did expand and fill the chamber, the case expanded when it conformed (formed) to the shape of the chamber, if the case can not expand (form) it splits.
And for a very short period of time they used reduced loads (pistol powder) because it made the rifle user friendly? no it was cheaper but there was a problem, the 06 could not stand the sudden shock of reduced loads.
Thankfully the British provided us with the P14/M1917.
F. Guffey
"IMHO, having a gun marked .30-06 that can't safely shoot .30-06 ammunition is just plain dangerous"
Hatcher modified a 30/06 chamber by moving the shoulder forward .125, he then chambered 30/06 ammo in the modified chamber and fired it, WHAT WAS THE DANGER? WHAT WAS THE RISK? Hatcher thought the case would fail or he had to eliminate the possibility the length of the chamber caused catastrophic failure.
Many 8mm57 rifles have been chambered to 8mm06, by mistake 8mm57 ammo has been chambered in the 8mm06 and fired, oddly? enough the difference between the 8mm57 and the 8mm06 is the same as the difference between the 30/06 and Hatcher's modified chamber, .125 plus about .003? The 8mm57 after firing was ejected as an 8mm06 with a short neck, the shoulder did not move forward, it was erased and became part of the case body, the neck became part of the shoulder and the case did not stretch? it got shorter.
The case did expand and fill the chamber, the case expanded when it conformed (formed) to the shape of the chamber, if the case can not expand (form) it splits.
And for a very short period of time they used reduced loads (pistol powder) because it made the rifle user friendly? no it was cheaper but there was a problem, the 06 could not stand the sudden shock of reduced loads.
Thankfully the British provided us with the P14/M1917.
F. Guffey
One more question. As I embark on this journey to find a better bolt, what should the head space be on this rifle? Keep in mind, I am not shooting military ammo, and will be using today's modern stuff. The smith told me I was about .015 out of spec. What is a good tolerance to be within?
In the perfect world head space is .005 thousands meaning a full length size case is .000 or .005 thousands shorter from the head of the case to it's shoulder than the chamber (go-gage length) when measured from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber.
Your rifle with .015 thousands head space is .001 over a field reject gage, .005 over a no go-gage and .010 thousands over a go-gage, when compared to the minimum length cartridge (full length size) case the difference between your chamber length (bolt face to shoulder) and factory ammo (from the head of the case to it's shoulder) is .015 thousands.
There is a John Smith, collector/reloader/shooter in PA that was surprised he had an M1917 Enfield with .016 thousands head space, I determine head space before I load for a chamber, it is as easy for me to form first then fire than is is to take the rifle to the range then fire to determine the effect the chamber had on the case.
As was suggested, other chambers are possible, I have a P14 that is a 308 Norma mag, that is a lot of work, My Eddystone is a 30/06 + .016. I have a 30 Gibbs that is modified and improved, the shoulder has been moved forward .202 thousands, it could be called the 30/06 +.202, the neck is .217 long.
Again we are hoping there is a problem with the bolt, but I have no less than 40 03 bolts, there is not .003 difference between them, I have 8 Mauser receivers with bent bolts with out barrels, no matter what combination, bolt to receiver, there is not .004 difference.
I purchased a mill from a collector in Arlington, TX. at the time he was building an 03 period correct rifle for 1911 with a straight bolt, changing bolts was not an option, between us we have 100 plus bolts, I have one straight handled 03, point being he had a hand full of gages, he knew the go-gage would 'GO', he knew the no go-gage would not go.
I did not want to waste his time but did explain to him I could use the go-gage to determine the exact amount of head space he had, or I could use the no go-gage etc or I could check the head space three different ways with out a head space gage, long story short with a new box of Remington 30/06 ammo his rifle had .0065 head space + or - .0005 because of the difference in the length of his new Ammo from the head of the case to the shoulder. We tried a few of his bent handle bolts, no improvement, no difference.
I have new in the box 03A3 bolts, why would bolts be shipped two to the box if there was no difference in the effect the bolt has on head space? Order, use one, the other was a spare for parts? Brown and Sharp replacement bolts for 03 and 03A3s.
F. Guffey
Your rifle with .015 thousands head space is .001 over a field reject gage, .005 over a no go-gage and .010 thousands over a go-gage, when compared to the minimum length cartridge (full length size) case the difference between your chamber length (bolt face to shoulder) and factory ammo (from the head of the case to it's shoulder) is .015 thousands.
There is a John Smith, collector/reloader/shooter in PA that was surprised he had an M1917 Enfield with .016 thousands head space, I determine head space before I load for a chamber, it is as easy for me to form first then fire than is is to take the rifle to the range then fire to determine the effect the chamber had on the case.
As was suggested, other chambers are possible, I have a P14 that is a 308 Norma mag, that is a lot of work, My Eddystone is a 30/06 + .016. I have a 30 Gibbs that is modified and improved, the shoulder has been moved forward .202 thousands, it could be called the 30/06 +.202, the neck is .217 long.
Again we are hoping there is a problem with the bolt, but I have no less than 40 03 bolts, there is not .003 difference between them, I have 8 Mauser receivers with bent bolts with out barrels, no matter what combination, bolt to receiver, there is not .004 difference.
I purchased a mill from a collector in Arlington, TX. at the time he was building an 03 period correct rifle for 1911 with a straight bolt, changing bolts was not an option, between us we have 100 plus bolts, I have one straight handled 03, point being he had a hand full of gages, he knew the go-gage would 'GO', he knew the no go-gage would not go.
I did not want to waste his time but did explain to him I could use the go-gage to determine the exact amount of head space he had, or I could use the no go-gage etc or I could check the head space three different ways with out a head space gage, long story short with a new box of Remington 30/06 ammo his rifle had .0065 head space + or - .0005 because of the difference in the length of his new Ammo from the head of the case to the shoulder. We tried a few of his bent handle bolts, no improvement, no difference.
I have new in the box 03A3 bolts, why would bolts be shipped two to the box if there was no difference in the effect the bolt has on head space? Order, use one, the other was a spare for parts? Brown and Sharp replacement bolts for 03 and 03A3s.
F. Guffey