Excessive Defense
- Thread starter jtmoose
- Start date
i have not found anywhere that list all the evidence used in the case of the retired teacher in i believe new mexico.
BUT
yes a prosecutor can say in a trial that a certain caliber is excessive for self defense.
AND
that hollow points are to kill and not wound.
BUT
any half way decent deffense attorney can destroy that theory. they can call self defense experts in. they can get into testimony that hollow points are made for the purpose of SELF defense. they can make the argument that any prosecutor that would say that is ignorant in his knowlege of the subject.
my point is that i highly doubt that is why the guy got convicted. there may have been more evidence. and the guys defense attorney sounds like he was far from the greatest.
just my opinion.
BUT
yes a prosecutor can say in a trial that a certain caliber is excessive for self defense.
AND
that hollow points are to kill and not wound.
BUT
any half way decent deffense attorney can destroy that theory. they can call self defense experts in. they can get into testimony that hollow points are made for the purpose of SELF defense. they can make the argument that any prosecutor that would say that is ignorant in his knowlege of the subject.
my point is that i highly doubt that is why the guy got convicted. there may have been more evidence. and the guys defense attorney sounds like he was far from the greatest.
just my opinion.
JollyRoger
New member
Juries can go weird and focus on esoteric parts of a case to make their decisions. Seen it happen.
FWIW, I think you might stand less of a chance of a jury going wonky with guns that look more "friendly." A Rem. 870 with standard wood furniture looks like grandpa's duck gun, whereas a tricked-out semi auto Benelli entry gun with extended mag, pistol grip, red dot sight and sidesaddle ammo carrier might freak out a juror or two. Arguments that both function similarly may fall on deaf ears, seeing is believing.
FWIW, I think you might stand less of a chance of a jury going wonky with guns that look more "friendly." A Rem. 870 with standard wood furniture looks like grandpa's duck gun, whereas a tricked-out semi auto Benelli entry gun with extended mag, pistol grip, red dot sight and sidesaddle ammo carrier might freak out a juror or two. Arguments that both function similarly may fall on deaf ears, seeing is believing.
Maybe where you live, but I was speaking to a LEO friend of mine and his department is teaching triple taps to the central nervous system (inline with the spinal cord) with the final shot to the head. Sems like their thought process is to stop the threat by killing the bad guy.
troy_mclure
New member
thats the fastest/surest way all right, and probably the least expensive in the long run.
Just a dumb question here but has any body contemplated the psychological effect of trying to stop a bad guy by shooting him in the groin?
I know, I know, there is something not quite kosher about doing that but hear me out. How many guys do you think will have the will to keep fighting while they wonder if you just shot their ummm...equipment off?
Is this a stupid idea? I am being 100% serious here.
I know, I know, there is something not quite kosher about doing that but hear me out. How many guys do you think will have the will to keep fighting while they wonder if you just shot their ummm...equipment off?
Is this a stupid idea? I am being 100% serious here.
JollyRoger
New member
Not exactly a great cold weather target - better be a marksman.
Hmmmm........
20ga. Camo shotgun
#6 "BIRD" shot
Point and groin and pump away....
Sounds very safe to a jury. Little ol' bird shot sounds less menacing than a big bad SLUG.
I know #6 to the groin would make me think twice ! !
And its a lot easier to find than 20ga. buck.
In line with JollyRogers comment:
I was recently trying to convince my brother that his mossburg 500 with extended tube, collapsable stock, laser, maglite and foregrip don't look as innocent as an old camo brush hunting gun. "Its what I use to hunt squirrels and birds. It was the first thing I grabbed." ('cause it lives behind the bedroom door!)
Even my semi-anti mom saw it and said "Does this mean we're having quail for supper?" she'd choke if she saw my brothers.
I hope this dosent revive the "Pink gun named fluffy" thread
20ga. Camo shotgun
#6 "BIRD" shot
Point and groin and pump away....
Sounds very safe to a jury. Little ol' bird shot sounds less menacing than a big bad SLUG.
I know #6 to the groin would make me think twice ! !
And its a lot easier to find than 20ga. buck.
In line with JollyRogers comment:
I was recently trying to convince my brother that his mossburg 500 with extended tube, collapsable stock, laser, maglite and foregrip don't look as innocent as an old camo brush hunting gun. "Its what I use to hunt squirrels and birds. It was the first thing I grabbed." ('cause it lives behind the bedroom door!)
Even my semi-anti mom saw it and said "Does this mean we're having quail for supper?" she'd choke if she saw my brothers.
I hope this dosent revive the "Pink gun named fluffy" thread
FyredUp, guess you don't watch South Park. It's just wrong to shoot someone in the groin. ;-)
And for shooting to kill versus shooting to stop a threat..... sounds like a PC statement that they teach. Also sounds better in court. But be real. How do you know the threat has been stopped? When it stops moving. A euphemism is the correct term but guess that's not PC either so now it's.... well....PC.
And for shooting to kill versus shooting to stop a threat..... sounds like a PC statement that they teach. Also sounds better in court. But be real. How do you know the threat has been stopped? When it stops moving. A euphemism is the correct term but guess that's not PC either so now it's.... well....PC.
i will give an example. i had a guy pull a gun on me. i quickly shot him twice in the mid chest (one off to the left side a few inches). he hit the floor almost immediatly and was incopacitated, gun dropped well out of reach. there was no way this guy could harm me or my partner anymore. therefore i shot until the threat was gone. if i would have continued balistics would have shown that he was on the ground for some of the wounds. and since the threat was over it would have become a criminal act. and i am too pretty for prison. now if he would have died because of the two bullet wounds he recieved then everything would have been fine still, as long as i stopped shooting after the THREAT was gone. so its not just PC to say shoot to stop the threat.
so ya shoot the guy twice, he falls to the ground dead. gun is still in his hand and you are pumped on adreneline. ya put two more in him cause he still has gun?
i think yes.
i was listening to local police practice at range the other day. sounded like this "freeze, bang bang bang" some of the times the last e in freeze and the bang were mixed together.
as stated before, it is better to be judged by 12 then carried by six.
i also believe a gun is just like a rubber, better to have one and not need it then to need it and not have it
i think yes.
i was listening to local police practice at range the other day. sounded like this "freeze, bang bang bang" some of the times the last e in freeze and the bang were mixed together.
as stated before, it is better to be judged by 12 then carried by six.
i also believe a gun is just like a rubber, better to have one and not need it then to need it and not have it
mskdgunman
New member
I can only speak for Florida but as for shooting the guy with something less then lethal (ie birdshot) from what is considerd a lethal weapon (a shotgun) may not be a good idea. If you do not think that deadly force is justified, you should not shoot. Thats why cops (in our area at least) can't do the infamous "Warning shot" because any discharge of a weapon is considered deadly force whether or not you actually intended to kill the guy. So, if you say, well, I just wanted to scare/wound him.....look for an indictment to follow shortly thereafter.
Now, if deadly force is justified, there is no limit on the manner in which it can be applied. Take for example the batons we are issued. We're taught not to strike certain areas that are likely to cause death or great bodily injury, the head being one of those. Now, consider that I'm in an up close confrontation hands on with a BG and I have my baton out. BG pulls a knife and the rules change. The head is now a viable target because I'm justified in deploying deadly force. Why did I use my baton instead of my sidearm? I had the baton in my hand and his head was available. Of course, if I can withdrawl and go to my handgun, thats my first choice.
Someone standing in front of my patrol car pointing a weapon at me and it puts me in fear for my life? Do I get out and engage or simply run him over? I choose to stay with the 2000 pound battering ram that provides at least a little cover. Either way, the guy is dead and my actions will be judged by the facts as they were available to me at the time of the incident.
"Why did we shoot him 96 times? We ran out of ammo." - Sheriff Grady Judd, Polk County Florida after the shooting of Angelo Freeland who had murded D/S Matt Williams and his K-9 partner Diogi. (Not necessarily a fan of his but he got it right that time so I'll give him due credit for guts)
Now, if deadly force is justified, there is no limit on the manner in which it can be applied. Take for example the batons we are issued. We're taught not to strike certain areas that are likely to cause death or great bodily injury, the head being one of those. Now, consider that I'm in an up close confrontation hands on with a BG and I have my baton out. BG pulls a knife and the rules change. The head is now a viable target because I'm justified in deploying deadly force. Why did I use my baton instead of my sidearm? I had the baton in my hand and his head was available. Of course, if I can withdrawl and go to my handgun, thats my first choice.
Someone standing in front of my patrol car pointing a weapon at me and it puts me in fear for my life? Do I get out and engage or simply run him over? I choose to stay with the 2000 pound battering ram that provides at least a little cover. Either way, the guy is dead and my actions will be judged by the facts as they were available to me at the time of the incident.
"Why did we shoot him 96 times? We ran out of ammo." - Sheriff Grady Judd, Polk County Florida after the shooting of Angelo Freeland who had murded D/S Matt Williams and his K-9 partner Diogi. (Not necessarily a fan of his but he got it right that time so I'll give him due credit for guts)
Mountain Man
Inactive
Their is no such thing as excessive force when the object is to kill.