Excellent Information for Defensive Carriers and Home Defenders
- Thread starter DanThaMan1776
- Start date
Interesting read, most of which I agree with. My preferred carry is .45 acp Gold Dots. Depending upon dress, etc., however, I will carry a smaller caliber including .380.
The one question I would have asked the author is whether he had seen (or could tell) differences in types of hollow points, not brands, but bonded versus non-bonded. I'm betting a lot of the poorer performing 9mm hollow points he mentions is non-bonded.
One other thing, he really likes "big and slow" like .45 or .40 but then later goes into the importance of energy. Energy is more effected by velocity than mass since the the formula is E=1/2 of mass times velocity squared. Formula for Momentum is mass times velocity. It seems to me that momentum is more important than energy for penetration.
The one question I would have asked the author is whether he had seen (or could tell) differences in types of hollow points, not brands, but bonded versus non-bonded. I'm betting a lot of the poorer performing 9mm hollow points he mentions is non-bonded.
One other thing, he really likes "big and slow" like .45 or .40 but then later goes into the importance of energy. Energy is more effected by velocity than mass since the the formula is E=1/2 of mass times velocity squared. Formula for Momentum is mass times velocity. It seems to me that momentum is more important than energy for penetration.
I carry 38 special +p and a 357 in the cubby console but cannot downplay the 9mm which I considered a wimp round until I saw some pretty awesome results of it against a pine log.
I have a semi but some jams convinced me that it takes only one malfunction to make me go home to a gate which is Pearly instead of white.
I found what I consider a contradiction is one of his statements:
As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.
If the 9mm and the 380 are so weak, why are these guys ending up in the morgue, and also the majority? If the 9mm or 380 took multiple rounds to kill and the BG was still able to return fire with a more lethal weapon, then shouldn’t there one corpse with a 357 hole in him for every corpse with fifteen 9mm’s?
I’ll keep my 38 and 357 but that doesn’t mean I’ll not respect the 9 and 380.
I have a semi but some jams convinced me that it takes only one malfunction to make me go home to a gate which is Pearly instead of white.
I found what I consider a contradiction is one of his statements:
As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.
If the 9mm and the 380 are so weak, why are these guys ending up in the morgue, and also the majority? If the 9mm or 380 took multiple rounds to kill and the BG was still able to return fire with a more lethal weapon, then shouldn’t there one corpse with a 357 hole in him for every corpse with fifteen 9mm’s?
I’ll keep my 38 and 357 but that doesn’t mean I’ll not respect the 9 and 380.
prety interesting article i carry a glock 17 myself loaded with 124g +p hp and would hope first and foremost that i never need to shoot it in defence but second if i do have to defend myself with it it does the job effictivly. in this area the standard gun for the LOE is a glock 22 i dont know what ammo they typicaly use or encourage
Whirlwind06
New member
Here is another one from the FBI that says, all things being equal bigger is better. It is dated (1987) but worth reading.
http://firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
http://firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
kodiakbeer
Moderator
I wish the guy was a less wordy writer - most of his points could have been condensed into a fraction of that long read. If he does write a book, I'm not going to buy it!
Yet, his points, drawn from his own unique perspective, parallel the findings of any number of other more objective studies. .40, .45, .357 are better stoppers than 9mm, .380, etc.
Does that change anything for most of us? No. I'm still going to carry my little .380 in warm weather and my .45 compact in cold weather because in the real world other considerations come into play - concealment being the most obvious one. Still, I hope if I ever have to defend myself, it happens when I'm carrying my .45....
I think those who carry full-sized 9mm's might want to think about it since you can get a .40 or .45 in the same size/weight package. But even there, maybe the extra ammo capacity or lower recoil weigh more heavily than the terminal effects in your decision? Keep shooting until they fall down...
Yet, his points, drawn from his own unique perspective, parallel the findings of any number of other more objective studies. .40, .45, .357 are better stoppers than 9mm, .380, etc.
Does that change anything for most of us? No. I'm still going to carry my little .380 in warm weather and my .45 compact in cold weather because in the real world other considerations come into play - concealment being the most obvious one. Still, I hope if I ever have to defend myself, it happens when I'm carrying my .45....
I think those who carry full-sized 9mm's might want to think about it since you can get a .40 or .45 in the same size/weight package. But even there, maybe the extra ammo capacity or lower recoil weigh more heavily than the terminal effects in your decision? Keep shooting until they fall down...
I have absolutely ZERO concerns about any of my guns (other than .22lr) being more than adequate for protection. It comes down to placement, ammo type and lest we forget quantity. I can put 3 (although I confident one would work well) 9mm Golden Sabers on the same target and in the same time it takes me to re-align my sights after one round of .45 TAP from a 1911. I use GDHP for short barrels in my j-frame and Critical Defense or DPX in my LCP. Lastly, my .357 Vaquero is full of XTP just in case the survive all the rest.
I think we get carried away with things sometimes. Let's remember that we are shooting bullets from a gun and not paperclips from a rubber band. Honestly, as long as you have good HP ammo and a reliable gun, anything .380 or better should be more than sufficient for protection.
I think we get carried away with things sometimes. Let's remember that we are shooting bullets from a gun and not paperclips from a rubber band. Honestly, as long as you have good HP ammo and a reliable gun, anything .380 or better should be more than sufficient for protection.
christcorp
New member
sgt45 and DantheMan: I really wouldn't worry about the noise from a firearm at night. First, just about any substantial hearing loss would require sustained exposure to the noise. If it's a self defense situation, you're talking probably at the very most a couple of shots. Next; you don't see police officers on duty, when they need to draw their weapon, putting on earmuffs or earplugs. They do at the practice range, but not for normal duty. Finally, in a real world defensive situation, your natural body reaction to fear, stress, and anxiety will make you not even think about the gun. Chances are, if you ever had to actually pull the trigger, you wouldn't even remember the noise later on. There are way too many accounts of self defense where the person defending themselves at home emptied an entire magazine at a bad guy. They didn't stop after the first shot because of the noise. If the body's response was the same as it is at the range; where you mind is concentrating on the gun and not the threat, after the first shot you'd react with the: "Damn, SOB, MF, god that's loud". But in reality, you don't.
Your mind is on the threat. Your adrenaline, fear, and other emotions will totally block out the loudness of the firearm. And without sustained contact with the noise, no significant harm will result either. The last thing I want to do is look for earmuffs or have them on. Even if they are electronic. One more thing to go wrong. You have such a slim chance of having to pull the trigger, and even if you do, the chance are highest that it will only be a couple of shots. You'll either hit your target or your target will run away. An actual gunfight is....... well, I'll be nice and just say it's very unlikely. So don't worry about the sound of the gun. You won't react to it if you really have to pull the trigger. Your mind won't let you. It's worried about the threat, not the noise.
Your mind is on the threat. Your adrenaline, fear, and other emotions will totally block out the loudness of the firearm. And without sustained contact with the noise, no significant harm will result either. The last thing I want to do is look for earmuffs or have them on. Even if they are electronic. One more thing to go wrong. You have such a slim chance of having to pull the trigger, and even if you do, the chance are highest that it will only be a couple of shots. You'll either hit your target or your target will run away. An actual gunfight is....... well, I'll be nice and just say it's very unlikely. So don't worry about the sound of the gun. You won't react to it if you really have to pull the trigger. Your mind won't let you. It's worried about the threat, not the noise.
kodiakbeer
Moderator
Yeah - ask any big game hunter about the noise after he's knocked down a big elk or moose with a .338. "What noise?"
Shoot that same .338 on the range without ear protection and it's a very different story.
Lost Sheep
New member
Out of 4", probably only 3,000 fps
Lost Sheep
Back when Dick Casull was first marketing his now-popular round, there was also a companion piece. A Ruger #3 single-shot carbine. There was also a lesser-known 22-454 Casull. The 454 Casull case necked down to .334" and it delivered a 52 grain bullet out of the 20" barrel at just over 4,000 fps. $300. The price kind to tells you how long ago that was.
Lost Sheep
So this one individual performs/assists in 2,993 autopsies in a given year? When the CDC reported less then 200,000 nationwide for the entire country in 2003, and less then 16,000 of those were for homicides (the most were for accidental death, which could include firearms I suppose) 
(you can look up the numbers yourself at the CDC site: I used the 2003 report, part of their annual Vital and Health Statistics series: Series 20, Number 32, Autopsy Patterns in 2003).
(you can look up the numbers yourself at the CDC site: I used the 2003 report, part of their annual Vital and Health Statistics series: Series 20, Number 32, Autopsy Patterns in 2003).
edink wrote
I discovered a similar phenomenon when comparing follow-up times of reduced-power .357 to .38 special +P in an SP-101. It was one round vs. 2 rounds, respectively. Assuming the .38 special +P is good enough, I don't see the point in optimizing the power variable when I can double my chances of making a decisive hit by choosing the more controllable round.
Similar logic has led me to the conclusion that an even easier-to-shoot compact 9mm with a 14 or 17-round capacity (XD9 SC) makes an abundant amount of sense as a defensive handgun. If a 124-grain 9mm +P hollowpoint is good enough, and I believe that it is ~ nearly on par with the reduced-power .357 and superior to the .38 +P ~ I of course would prefer a much higher capacity, and therefore the potential of more "chances" at making a decisive hit, especially since the gun itself is even easier to shoot quickly and accurately than my SP-101 with .38 rounds.
Train double-taps.
I discovered a similar phenomenon when comparing follow-up times of reduced-power .357 to .38 special +P in an SP-101. It was one round vs. 2 rounds, respectively. Assuming the .38 special +P is good enough, I don't see the point in optimizing the power variable when I can double my chances of making a decisive hit by choosing the more controllable round.
Similar logic has led me to the conclusion that an even easier-to-shoot compact 9mm with a 14 or 17-round capacity (XD9 SC) makes an abundant amount of sense as a defensive handgun. If a 124-grain 9mm +P hollowpoint is good enough, and I believe that it is ~ nearly on par with the reduced-power .357 and superior to the .38 +P ~ I of course would prefer a much higher capacity, and therefore the potential of more "chances" at making a decisive hit, especially since the gun itself is even easier to shoot quickly and accurately than my SP-101 with .38 rounds.
Train double-taps.
autopsies
I'm not sure what conclusions can be made from selected autopsy data, particularly when the author seems to use it to support his own preconceptions. I have to go with Ichiro on this one - controllability and shot placement trumps everything else. The NYPD SOP review of police/perp shootings found that shot placement was the most significant factor in stopping a gunfight. Caliber was not.
I'm not sure what conclusions can be made from selected autopsy data, particularly when the author seems to use it to support his own preconceptions. I have to go with Ichiro on this one - controllability and shot placement trumps everything else. The NYPD SOP review of police/perp shootings found that shot placement was the most significant factor in stopping a gunfight. Caliber was not.