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Every man's dilemma
- Thread starter Roland Thunder
- Start date
I think your confusion is caused by the fact that the GA state website has a page for applying for a "Georgia Firearms Permit."
http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/portal/gwinnett/Services/FirearmPermit
Whereas, on my CCW card, it's actually labeled GEORGIA FIREARMS LICENSE.
Either way, it's for CCW purposes. GA doesn't require purchase permits in the sense of NC, or firearms licenses in the sense of NY.
http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/portal/gwinnett/Services/FirearmPermit
Whereas, on my CCW card, it's actually labeled GEORGIA FIREARMS LICENSE.
Either way, it's for CCW purposes. GA doesn't require purchase permits in the sense of NC, or firearms licenses in the sense of NY.
State of Florida law (only 1 i can speak for) states that if you pull you should be shooting.
Add me to the "show-me" list. I am a Floridian who has had a CCW permit for over 20 years.
However, I personally would not want to need to answer questions by the police unless I had a better reason for unholstering than someone was walking behind me, regardless of their description.
And yet in over 90% of cases where guns are used to defend against a crime, the crime ceases without a shot fired...
... so tell me again how if you draw, you should automatically shoot.
That's such a crock it isn't funny, but there seem to be any number of posters who think it's gospel.
If I feel endangered, in fear of life or serious injury, I'm justified to shoot, and to take lesser actions, to include drawing. If the laws in your jurisdiction differ, then the odds are they are just badly written.
... so tell me again how if you draw, you should automatically shoot.
That's such a crock it isn't funny, but there seem to be any number of posters who think it's gospel.
If I feel endangered, in fear of life or serious injury, I'm justified to shoot, and to take lesser actions, to include drawing. If the laws in your jurisdiction differ, then the odds are they are just badly written.
Whereas, on my CCW card, it's actually labeled GEORGIA FIREARMS LICENSE.
Thanks.
Yes, that is the same thing I have. I suspect Greg and I are referring to the same thing just utilizing different names for the document.
Dr. Strangelove said:and somewhere on another forum...
I was leaving a concert with a friend the other night, we were walking toward our car, laughing it up, had been awhile since we'd seen each other. Suddenly, this older couple in front of us starts acting all weird and get this - the fool pulls out a pistol!
My buddy and I high-tailed it, because you know all those old couples are exactly alike, "head on a swivel", "condition red 24/7", and all that other chest thumping foolish garbage you read about.
We were going to call the police, but didn't want to mess up our night.
If you are going to attend a concert in a major urban center like Atlanta, and minorities, urban youth, people of a different race, age, or socio-economic background freak you out, then you best stay home.
You friend is lucky he is not in jail.
That might very well be the case. It is also highly probable that the two guys that were following this couple meant to do them harm.
I was born and raised in one of the worse parts of Chicago. Younger kids, drug addicts, gang members, and anyone else that I ever saw attack or mess with another person always picked couples, elderly, or people that did not look as if they could defend themselves as their targets of choice. They would often work in groups or pairs, they almost always attacked from behind, and they were often very loud, arrogant, or obnoxious before the attack...
There are obviously a lot of unknowns in this discussion. Had someone called the police your friend might have gotten into some trouble with the law. I am glad your friend made it out of the situation safely. Unfortunately cases like this are never really as black and white as we would like them to be.
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
This is more about the legalities of the actions in the OP than it is tactics or training. Moving to L&CR.
funny book flapjack
Inactive
GA laws got MUCH better in the last year!
Public gathering law was done away with in Georgia.
Carry in non-secure areas of airport now legal.
Bars are now okay with owner's permission.
But, you still must have carry permit to open (& conceal) carry.
Still a few places like churches, gov't buildings, etc. where it's illegal.
There is no brandishing law in GA.
So sounds like he was legal.
Best way to handle it? Maybe. It worked & no one got hurt, so I ain't gonna say he was wrong to show it.
Public gathering law was done away with in Georgia.
Carry in non-secure areas of airport now legal.
Bars are now okay with owner's permission.
But, you still must have carry permit to open (& conceal) carry.
Still a few places like churches, gov't buildings, etc. where it's illegal.
There is no brandishing law in GA.
So sounds like he was legal.
Best way to handle it? Maybe. It worked & no one got hurt, so I ain't gonna say he was wrong to show it.
FrankenMauser
New member
Until last year, Utah code was written in a way that several different sections combined to create a situation in which a legally concealed weapon nearly always had to be fired, if drawn. Otherwise, brandishing charges were very likely; due to a very ambiguous definition of "brandishing", and lack of the following exception:
Emphasis mine. The referenced section, 76-2-402, is titled "Force in defense of person"; if anyone was wondering.
Utah Code
Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 10 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Welfare, and Morals
Section 506 Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
(1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include:
(a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or
(b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a).
(2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force:
(a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or
(b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.
Emphasis mine. The referenced section, 76-2-402, is titled "Force in defense of person"; if anyone was wondering.
I think the GA law about "public gatherings" has more to do with festivals and political rallies, although I've never tried to bring a weapon to a concert. I was looking at some other states' laws the other day, and some specifically prohibit weapons at concerts.
As far as whether the guy was in the wrong to pull a weapon, I can't say. I wasn't there, and I don't know how the two guys following were behaving. I will say that the violent crime rate in Atlanta is high, which is one reason I spend minimal time in the metro area.
With regard to 20yds being three times the permitted defensive range, where the heck did you come up with that one, Alaska444? I've never seen a codified range, although most instructors would recommend that if you have distance, use it to make an exit.
I suspect people are confusing the meaning of the Tueller drill, when it comes to the magical "7 yards." That distance is the MINIMUM distance at which the normal shooter could draw and get off a shot before a knife/club wielding attacker can close and strike. In other words, if you are really feeling threatened, but wait until 7 yards, you are very likely screwed.
Dear MLeake,
Thank you and all for a good review of the CCW basics with this thread. The 21 foot rule is an application of the self defense justification of deadly force only under the circumstances of IMMEDIATE threat of death or grave bodily harm. Many specify this under the following categories as we all know:
A = Ability. The person deemed to be a threat must possess the ability or power to kill or maim.
O = Opportunity. The person deemed to be a threat must be capable of immediately employing his power to kill or maim.
J = Jeopardy. This means that the person deemed to be a threat must be acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude beyond doubt that his intent is to kill or cripple.
First, do these two have the ability to inflict deadly force or grave bodily harm, possibly, so we will give them that part without argument.
Second, did they have at 20 yards with no visible weapons the opportunity IMMEDIATELY, at the very moment to inflict death or grave bodily harm? ABSOLUTELY not, and that is why the 21 foot rule is an important aspect of CCW permit classes. With no weapons in sight, they had absolutely NO opportunity at the very moment that the man in the OP pulled his gun. Sorry, but I do take issue that the 21 foot rule is not codified. There are indeed too many cases where people were further than 21 foot at the time they shot someone with a knife approaching them that are now in jail as I learned in my CCW classes.
In addition, since the person was already worried about the two, the first line of defense is evasive actions especially with 20 yards between them. Cross the street abruptly if possible, get on the other side of a car, etc. and evaluate their reactions.
Lastly, if they are rapidly approaching, back up and keep the distance.
Looking at the last criteria, jeopardy, as many have correctly noted, the two punks apparently had ignored these old folks and no directed threats, no shortening of the distance between them occurred. A court would not find jeopardy under the conditions described in the OP.
Thus, I believe that the man in the OP did everything incorrectly and his example is of what not to do. I certainly would not want to go to court with that story as my only defense on why I drew my weapon. It is a very problematic case for several reasons even though it could have, might have turned out different. Sorry, the man in my opinion was not justified by his actions.
Once again, per the Tueller drill, if you wait until 21 feet to start your draw, odds are not in your favor. You do what you like...
I am willing to bet your CCW instructors could also have found you plenty of examples of people in jail who had engaged at well inside 21ft. A bad shoot is a bad shoot. Distance over 21ft or even over 20 yds does not guarantee that a useful line of escape is present.
IE there are many factors more important than simple distance, when it comes to legal issues. OTOH, controlling distance is one of the most crucial aspects of tactics.
I am willing to bet your CCW instructors could also have found you plenty of examples of people in jail who had engaged at well inside 21ft. A bad shoot is a bad shoot. Distance over 21ft or even over 20 yds does not guarantee that a useful line of escape is present.
IE there are many factors more important than simple distance, when it comes to legal issues. OTOH, controlling distance is one of the most crucial aspects of tactics.
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I always look at being armed like I look at everything else in life. I avoid the edges. I don't eat as much as I can, but I don't starve myself. I don't drink until I can't see but I don't abstain either. I don't drive like I'm playing Grand Theft Auto but I don't drive like an old lady either. I have good quality deadbolts and solid doors on my house but I don't put bars on the windows and outfit it like a fortress. I don't worry about squeezing every last fraction of a percentage point out of my financial investments but I do look for solid returns.
In self defense situations I'm going to need to see an actual confirmed threat before the weapon comes out of the holster unless I am on my own home premises (I'm grabbing the 12ga if possible at home and you can't really conceal that). Someone walking behind me at night is not an actual, confirmed threat. Someone walking behind me at night yelling obscenities at me and/or my wife or child is NOT an actual confirmed threat. If I have a way to keep walking my bias is toward keeping the weapon in the holster. Now if I see a guy produce a firearm or knife or run toward me with a 2x4 or if he actually gets close enough to touch (while yelling those obscenities or threats) or does touch me or mine then the weapon comes out.
Everyone always says "you can't take chances with safety" or "you can't put a price on safety". B.S. We all take chances every day with our safety (and put a price on it). We have to in order to exist in the world. You drive a car you take a chance. You fly on a plane you take a chance. You eat food you take a chance. You plug in an appliance you take a chance. You cross the street.....I could go on. We don't all drive customized armored Volvo's because customized, armored anything costs a mint and we have other uses for our money. But you could get in an accident, or get carjacked. You take the chance and drive a Chevy, or a Toyota anyway.
If I drew every time I saw a shifty character my life would be like a dime novel western. So I stay vigilant, but give the benefit of the doubt. So far it's working. It's a chance I've thought about and am willing to take.
I think your friend was over the edge. Edges are where problems happen. Avoid edges.
In self defense situations I'm going to need to see an actual confirmed threat before the weapon comes out of the holster unless I am on my own home premises (I'm grabbing the 12ga if possible at home and you can't really conceal that). Someone walking behind me at night is not an actual, confirmed threat. Someone walking behind me at night yelling obscenities at me and/or my wife or child is NOT an actual confirmed threat. If I have a way to keep walking my bias is toward keeping the weapon in the holster. Now if I see a guy produce a firearm or knife or run toward me with a 2x4 or if he actually gets close enough to touch (while yelling those obscenities or threats) or does touch me or mine then the weapon comes out.
Everyone always says "you can't take chances with safety" or "you can't put a price on safety". B.S. We all take chances every day with our safety (and put a price on it). We have to in order to exist in the world. You drive a car you take a chance. You fly on a plane you take a chance. You eat food you take a chance. You plug in an appliance you take a chance. You cross the street.....I could go on. We don't all drive customized armored Volvo's because customized, armored anything costs a mint and we have other uses for our money. But you could get in an accident, or get carjacked. You take the chance and drive a Chevy, or a Toyota anyway.
If I drew every time I saw a shifty character my life would be like a dime novel western. So I stay vigilant, but give the benefit of the doubt. So far it's working. It's a chance I've thought about and am willing to take.
I think your friend was over the edge. Edges are where problems happen. Avoid edges.
Dear MLeake,
I don't disagree that there are many factors that come to play besides distance, but let's go back to the OP situation where there was NO weapon displayed, no threats, no closing of the distance. In this situation, they have there hands and feet which at 60 feet, 20 yards is not a threat at that time.
Now, you have changed the OP situation to that of a known knife. In this instance, let's say at 20 yards, you see their knife in their hands. That now gives us the ability and jeopardy criteria. Yup, I have my gun out of the holster as well. Now, could I shoot them at 20 yards? That is a very dicey scenario since at that moment they are simply too far away and you are going to have to get some good attorneys and expert witnesses to prove that they had the opportunity at the time that you shoot.
What would I do, I would take evasive action backing up quickly, seeking objects to put between us and warn them I am armed. We haven't spoken of another criteria in many states, that of preclusion, to do all that you can to mitigate the situation before going to deadly force. Some states have stand your ground laws, but many do not. In this situation, understanding where you are and what the laws are under the circumstances will be the difference between justified homicide or criminal prosecution.
So, under your new scenario with the two "punks" with knives, now we have jeopardy and ability and I believe even being 20 yards away, you are going to be able to justify drawing your weapon. But as given in the OP, no, that is a troubling scenario that could end your days of carry.
By the way, when I was 18 years old, I had someone pull a knife on me for no good reason at all other than he was high on something and passed out at my table. He was a friend of my roommates named "Ricky." He didn't like it when my roommate couldn't wake him up and I simply said, "forget it Geno, he is gonzo." He looked up at me and said, no one calls me gonzo and said I am going to get me gun. He went out to his car but couldn't find the gun and brought a six inch hunting knife instead.
After several tense minutes where my roommate stood between us with the knife in the air in his hands ready to strike, he left. My roommate who brought this creep to our apartment after they had been drinking at least stood between us and said, here stab me in my heart Ricky with his arms open to him a couple of feet away to the weirdo until he calmed down. Not having any weapons of my own, I went into another room and locked the door until he left. My roommate was an ex-con that I worked with at a restaurant and had seen worse before.
I learned not to associate with people who have friends like Ricky first of all, and second, I actively avoid any sort of situation where something silly like that could happen. A simple comment turned into a deadly situation. So, I do know what opportunity, jeopardy and ability add up to in a deadly situation. In addition, if I thought he was really going to kill me, we all thought he was just joking, I would have locked the door to the house when he went outside in the first place taking away his opportunity. Scary situation just thinking about the whole thing and how absurd it was. But, if Geno my roommate had not intervened, it may have been a completely different outcome. There but for the grace of God.
I don't disagree that there are many factors that come to play besides distance, but let's go back to the OP situation where there was NO weapon displayed, no threats, no closing of the distance. In this situation, they have there hands and feet which at 60 feet, 20 yards is not a threat at that time.
Now, you have changed the OP situation to that of a known knife. In this instance, let's say at 20 yards, you see their knife in their hands. That now gives us the ability and jeopardy criteria. Yup, I have my gun out of the holster as well. Now, could I shoot them at 20 yards? That is a very dicey scenario since at that moment they are simply too far away and you are going to have to get some good attorneys and expert witnesses to prove that they had the opportunity at the time that you shoot.
What would I do, I would take evasive action backing up quickly, seeking objects to put between us and warn them I am armed. We haven't spoken of another criteria in many states, that of preclusion, to do all that you can to mitigate the situation before going to deadly force. Some states have stand your ground laws, but many do not. In this situation, understanding where you are and what the laws are under the circumstances will be the difference between justified homicide or criminal prosecution.
So, under your new scenario with the two "punks" with knives, now we have jeopardy and ability and I believe even being 20 yards away, you are going to be able to justify drawing your weapon. But as given in the OP, no, that is a troubling scenario that could end your days of carry.
By the way, when I was 18 years old, I had someone pull a knife on me for no good reason at all other than he was high on something and passed out at my table. He was a friend of my roommates named "Ricky." He didn't like it when my roommate couldn't wake him up and I simply said, "forget it Geno, he is gonzo." He looked up at me and said, no one calls me gonzo and said I am going to get me gun. He went out to his car but couldn't find the gun and brought a six inch hunting knife instead.
After several tense minutes where my roommate stood between us with the knife in the air in his hands ready to strike, he left. My roommate who brought this creep to our apartment after they had been drinking at least stood between us and said, here stab me in my heart Ricky with his arms open to him a couple of feet away to the weirdo until he calmed down. Not having any weapons of my own, I went into another room and locked the door until he left. My roommate was an ex-con that I worked with at a restaurant and had seen worse before.
I learned not to associate with people who have friends like Ricky first of all, and second, I actively avoid any sort of situation where something silly like that could happen. A simple comment turned into a deadly situation. So, I do know what opportunity, jeopardy and ability add up to in a deadly situation. In addition, if I thought he was really going to kill me, we all thought he was just joking, I would have locked the door to the house when he went outside in the first place taking away his opportunity. Scary situation just thinking about the whole thing and how absurd it was. But, if Geno my roommate had not intervened, it may have been a completely different outcome. There but for the grace of God.
Alaska444....
... lest this get personal, be assured I'm not trying to get you into a measuring contest. Nor do I disagree with most of what you've written. Please note, though, that in my first post I immediately hit the caveat of "wasn't there, don't know what the OP's friend saw or heard that didn't get translated into this thread, etc, so I can't say."
So, with regard to the OP's question, not enough info.
Please also note, I recommended evasion when possible threats are at longer ranges. We agree there.
As far as my knife-armed punks, or club-wielding punks, whatever you like... I won't wait to see a weapon, if enough other evidence convinces me there is one.
For that matter, if I were with my lady, and perceived two guys as threats, they don't need to have a weapon. There are too many ways things can go south for her, if I get disabled in such a scenario. If they make me think they are a threat for her.... Put it another way, I don't go looking for fist-fights, I don't engage in mutual combat (off the mat), and I don't hang with people who do. Strong-arm robbery is one of the forcible felonies that justify SD where I live; so is attempted rape or sexual assault. Neither requires that the BG have a weapon, let alone display one.
Now, do I get freaked out every time somebody might be following me? No, but do I cross the street? Or enter an open business? Or do other things to see if they are actually following? You betcha. Or, if I don't like the vibe I'm getting from somebody I can't realistically avoid, I'll make neutral eye contact and go into relaxed-ready body language. That often seems to convince folks to yield a bit more space, without anything needing to really be said or done.
But there are some ways in which people could act that would raise my hackles. I tend to trust both my instincts and my judgement, and I could envision a scenario where I might draw, or at least prepare to draw, in a variation of what the OP described.
Again, there's not enough information to judge, based on the fact that the OP is not the person who had the encounter, and probably has not communicated all the signals that person was processing at the time.
... lest this get personal, be assured I'm not trying to get you into a measuring contest. Nor do I disagree with most of what you've written. Please note, though, that in my first post I immediately hit the caveat of "wasn't there, don't know what the OP's friend saw or heard that didn't get translated into this thread, etc, so I can't say."
So, with regard to the OP's question, not enough info.
Please also note, I recommended evasion when possible threats are at longer ranges. We agree there.
As far as my knife-armed punks, or club-wielding punks, whatever you like... I won't wait to see a weapon, if enough other evidence convinces me there is one.
For that matter, if I were with my lady, and perceived two guys as threats, they don't need to have a weapon. There are too many ways things can go south for her, if I get disabled in such a scenario. If they make me think they are a threat for her.... Put it another way, I don't go looking for fist-fights, I don't engage in mutual combat (off the mat), and I don't hang with people who do. Strong-arm robbery is one of the forcible felonies that justify SD where I live; so is attempted rape or sexual assault. Neither requires that the BG have a weapon, let alone display one.
Now, do I get freaked out every time somebody might be following me? No, but do I cross the street? Or enter an open business? Or do other things to see if they are actually following? You betcha. Or, if I don't like the vibe I'm getting from somebody I can't realistically avoid, I'll make neutral eye contact and go into relaxed-ready body language. That often seems to convince folks to yield a bit more space, without anything needing to really be said or done.
But there are some ways in which people could act that would raise my hackles. I tend to trust both my instincts and my judgement, and I could envision a scenario where I might draw, or at least prepare to draw, in a variation of what the OP described.
Again, there's not enough information to judge, based on the fact that the OP is not the person who had the encounter, and probably has not communicated all the signals that person was processing at the time.
Dear MLkeake,
Yes, I believe we probably agree on more than we disagree. I had another instance where I chose to stay in local housing at Walter Reed instead of the Holiday Inn when training. Bad mistake, I ended up in the ghetto with a house full of cock roaches. My money was gone, and I was stuck for one month. Thank you Walter Reed housing office for the referral to this place.
In any case, I spent most of my time on call in the hospital and little time in that pit, but I got a little too cavalier about being in an all black neighborhood off of Georgia avenue. My last night on call, the resident told me to go home at 6 pm and take the rest of the night off. I ended up walking the mile back to my wonderful appartment and by the time I was almost home, it was getting dark. I walked past a shady looking nightclub where the bouncer was talking to a very large black male about 7 feet tall for real. I didn't like the situation, but I just walked by and didn't think much of it. I then heard his footsteps coming up behind me in a very dark place.
I immediately bolted across the 4 lane road with traffic to go to fried chicken place. Just as I get to the other side of this busy street, a Wash D.C. Cop comes screeming to a halt and gets out of the car and yells at me, What the !!!! are you doing here. You had one almost get you. When I told him I lived "right over there." he said get there and don't come out again at night.
I can't say I was too smart when I was young, my wife tells me I am not too smart today, but getting back to this thread, perceiving the threat is an incredibly important survival skill. Fortunately, in the instance above, I had the sixth sense without looking back over my shoulder that I was in BIG trouble. Since then, I don't put myself in that type of really stupid situation in the first place. Unfortunately, my own kids are still too naive and look at me weird when I put my gun on my hip or my pocket. "Oh dad." Well, chalk it up to experience, but taking notice that there are BG's out there is the first step to staying out of trouble.
I never would have been walking those streets that time of night without some one else armed in a group of us. The first part of not being a victim is not looking like a victim. I didn't do well in my first attempted mugging situation not looking like an easy target. I have learned since then.
Yes, I believe we probably agree on more than we disagree. I had another instance where I chose to stay in local housing at Walter Reed instead of the Holiday Inn when training. Bad mistake, I ended up in the ghetto with a house full of cock roaches. My money was gone, and I was stuck for one month. Thank you Walter Reed housing office for the referral to this place.
In any case, I spent most of my time on call in the hospital and little time in that pit, but I got a little too cavalier about being in an all black neighborhood off of Georgia avenue. My last night on call, the resident told me to go home at 6 pm and take the rest of the night off. I ended up walking the mile back to my wonderful appartment and by the time I was almost home, it was getting dark. I walked past a shady looking nightclub where the bouncer was talking to a very large black male about 7 feet tall for real. I didn't like the situation, but I just walked by and didn't think much of it. I then heard his footsteps coming up behind me in a very dark place.
I immediately bolted across the 4 lane road with traffic to go to fried chicken place. Just as I get to the other side of this busy street, a Wash D.C. Cop comes screeming to a halt and gets out of the car and yells at me, What the !!!! are you doing here. You had one almost get you. When I told him I lived "right over there." he said get there and don't come out again at night.
I can't say I was too smart when I was young, my wife tells me I am not too smart today, but getting back to this thread, perceiving the threat is an incredibly important survival skill. Fortunately, in the instance above, I had the sixth sense without looking back over my shoulder that I was in BIG trouble. Since then, I don't put myself in that type of really stupid situation in the first place. Unfortunately, my own kids are still too naive and look at me weird when I put my gun on my hip or my pocket. "Oh dad." Well, chalk it up to experience, but taking notice that there are BG's out there is the first step to staying out of trouble.
I never would have been walking those streets that time of night without some one else armed in a group of us. The first part of not being a victim is not looking like a victim. I didn't do well in my first attempted mugging situation not looking like an easy target. I have learned since then.
When I was training folks at our academy, I kept reminding them that 'when the hair stands up on the back of your neck, that is a primal warning that something is wrong" .
The immediate priority over everything else is changing the situation. Leave, find cover, do whatever it takes to change the situation to your favor. There have been times where I have had a gun drawn where no one could see it, because I could articulate "an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm to myself or others."
Don't ever forget this.
The immediate priority over everything else is changing the situation. Leave, find cover, do whatever it takes to change the situation to your favor. There have been times where I have had a gun drawn where no one could see it, because I could articulate "an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm to myself or others."
Don't ever forget this.
Dr. Strangelove
New member
In these situations, everyone will see what they want to see.
I posted some time ago about leaving a movie theater, a black male, (I'm white) came running around a car full speed to wards me and my brother. Turns out he had left his phone in the theater and was trying to retrieve it, as we heard a few cars down.
I live in Athens, GA, not far from Atlanta, I go there often for entertainment. I don't discount the possibility that ill will was meant toward the OP's friends, but you can't just assume that simply because someone of another age, race, creed, color, or religion happened to be walking behind them that they intended evil.
What one racial group sees as normal behavior may be perceived as another as hostility. If I pulled a gun on everyone I thought looked "sketchy", I'd walk around with a drawn pistol all day.
It's like the old saying, "If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail". I'm for concealed carry, I'm for personal defense, but understand that carrying a firearm for personal defense means that you need to understand that everyone isn't just like you and doesn't have the same personal boundaries, etc.
I posted some time ago about leaving a movie theater, a black male, (I'm white) came running around a car full speed to wards me and my brother. Turns out he had left his phone in the theater and was trying to retrieve it, as we heard a few cars down.
I live in Athens, GA, not far from Atlanta, I go there often for entertainment. I don't discount the possibility that ill will was meant toward the OP's friends, but you can't just assume that simply because someone of another age, race, creed, color, or religion happened to be walking behind them that they intended evil.
What one racial group sees as normal behavior may be perceived as another as hostility. If I pulled a gun on everyone I thought looked "sketchy", I'd walk around with a drawn pistol all day.
It's like the old saying, "If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail". I'm for concealed carry, I'm for personal defense, but understand that carrying a firearm for personal defense means that you need to understand that everyone isn't just like you and doesn't have the same personal boundaries, etc.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Interesting. I have a FL permit. They sent me a handbook with Florida's gun laws, and I don't recall seeing one that said anything like "If you draw your gun you must shoot someone."stonewall50 said:Hm. State of Florida law (only 1 i can speak for) states that if you pull you should be shooting.
Could you cite the section of FL statutes where this appears?
kilimanjaro
New member
An attorney I know says drawing and brandishing the pistol in the absence of a real and visible threat is not kosher, except possibly in Texas....
I know a co-worker who displayed a revolver during a neighborhood argument. He was arrested for that and found guilty. There was no credible threat to him or anyone else present, no one had displayed any other weapon, or touched anyone else, just a noisy argument. The co-worker still says he felt threatened, so much for rational thought.
I know a co-worker who displayed a revolver during a neighborhood argument. He was arrested for that and found guilty. There was no credible threat to him or anyone else present, no one had displayed any other weapon, or touched anyone else, just a noisy argument. The co-worker still says he felt threatened, so much for rational thought.