Ever a good way to bring this up with LEO?

NYPD13 has said it best, IMHO. as an LEO, the last thing we want/need in a situation where we have our weapon drawn, is the subject telling us we are wrong. compliance is key and only makes you look better. especially if we are wrong! at least in illinois, even if you are wrongully detained, you have no right to resist. and yes, even verbal things can be considered/are considered resisting, depending upon the situation.


that said..two things...

1: my service weapon has been drawn countless times, never once has my finger gone straight to the trigger. that's bad training. as a matter of fact, my finger has never been on the trigger on duty unless at the range.

2: i live in illinois, no cc or oc allowed whatsoever. (well, there is a way, and it's legal, but i'll digress) and i work an interstate that is extremely busy. as my state is just one of two that doesn't allow that freedom, just about everyone i pull over is from a cc state. they are treated no different then someone from my own state. i'm alert, hand nearby firearm, but not drawn.

i've even had ccw people hand their DL and their CCW permit. i ask if the weapon is on them or close at hand. if the answer is yes, another officer is requested, without them knowing, once that officer arrives, the subject is asked to setp out of the vehicle and the location of their sidearm. if one their person, they are searched, sidearm removed, magazine/cylinder emptied, ammo/magazine handed to subject, trunk opened, sidearm placed there. if in car, same process, but search is done while subject is next to assisting officer. a quick soundex on the serial number is done to make sure it isn't stolen/ wanted.

while i can arrest them and confiscate their weapon, i won't. while it's your responsibility to make sure you are obeying our laws, i respect that you let me know ahead of time you were indeed carrying. and that's key.

if they are from my state or wisconsin, they might just get arrested, as previously mentioned, not allowed in any condition, save one.


the one video i can think of right away is the female officer who just about shoots the perp while he is being detained, face down on the ground. you can see the concrete turn to dust right next to his head. one word..idiot! here ya go!!!
 
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NRA Gun Safety Rules# 2: ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Click to expand...

If a LEO has his/her finger on the trigger, it seems to me like he/she is ready and prepared to shoot you if necessary...
 
"...is there ever a good way to suggest to a LEO in that situation to 'please keep your finger off the trigger' without escalating things?"

Not really, for the reasons listed.

I'll add to them them that some agencies still train to place the finger on the trigger once the firearm is on target, and others trained their people that way for so long that despite changing the policy the practice remains in the field. Still others who have discovered the practice somewhere along the way and believe it to be more effective, a tactical advantage which will give them an edge; after all, it is "old school."
 
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I'll add also that it depends on the dynamics of the situation. If the officer is really on high alert for some reason then you might make things worse. As an example, if you happen to match the description of an armed robbery suspect.

In most other cases I'd try to remember that police officers are not some weird breed of human. They are regular people just like you and me, and they make mistakes. Read the situation and act accordingly. Maybe (s)he's a rookie making a rookie (stupid) mistake, they might be thankful for your input.

Point is, they have little kids and wives and mothers too. We're not talking about someone who WANTS to shoot you, even if you are a BG.
 
Here's a link to one such shooting. The cop involved definitely did mean to be pointing at the suspect, and definitely should not have had her finger on the trigger while doing so. Note the gun appears to be a Sig with a long heavy DA trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HcvIH6GpW8

Every department I know of around here trains their LEOs to keep the finger off the trigger "until you have made the decision to fire."

Peeza ~

Good post. It really does depend on the dynamics of the situation. In a situation like the one in the link I just posted, you'd better not say a word because it'll make the situation worse. However, in a situation like I was in once, a routine traffic stop and the cop decided to disarm the driver, I as the passenger simply ducked out of the way of the waving muzzle as the cop tried to figure out how to unload the gun. I ducked, he noticed and moved away, end of story. Never had to say anything, and the dynamics weren't high-tension even if I had.

pax
 
As someone posted, I also have had my weapon out countless times but haven't had finger on trigger on duty yet---thank God.

That said, there is no such thing as routine T-Stop. If I care enough to stop you I care enough to have my weapon out, behind my right leg and finger indexed.
 
This one was fatal

This was an "oops" shooting in Fairfax County, Virginia. Salvatore Culosi, a 37-year-old optometrist, was shot to death by a police "tactical" officer serving a warrant for bookmaking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012502245.html

Were I ever to be in the OP's suggested situation, I'd not think it the opportune time to suggest a wee bit of remedial training. I'd shut up, do as I'm told, and take it up with his supervisors after the fact.
 
Here's a link to one such shooting. The cop involved definitely did mean to be pointing at the suspect, and definitely should not have had her finger on the trigger while doing so. Note the gun appears to be a Sig with a long heavy DA trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HcvIH6GpW8
Click to expand...

I have seen that footage on television. It is hard to see it on youtube, but when viewed on TV, it can clearly be seen as a Beretta 92.
 
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assume

I would assume that the officer in question knows that they should not have their finger on the trigger unless ready to shoot. This would also lead to the assumption on my part that this officer is about to shoot me.

Edward429451 recounts a case of mistaken identity, involving SWAT guys with mp-5's. Yours may well have been the same thing, mistaken ID, and your officer knew exactly what they were doing, and thought you were a real BAD guy. Assume the worst, and do what you are told. You could also say a prayer that your assumptions are correct, and this cop knows what they are doing, and you come out OK to complain about the problem after the fact. If the guns are out, the time to talk is over.
 
It shouldn't make any difference what trigger mechanism the LEO's firearm uses. His/her finger shouldn't be on the trigger until AFTER he/she has made the decision to shoot, and not before then - just as for any of us. Any and sundry things can happen to us in a moment of exigency, and putting your finger inside the trigger housing is an invitation for any of them to happen.

I find it absurd that some LEO agencies teach placing the finger inside the guard prior to making the decision to shoot. That seems incredibly foolish to me.
 
There's a similar video on a officer who does the same with an MP-5. He shoots one next to the noggin of a downed supsect. It was claimed that the suspect was still wiggling so he shot next to his head to calm him.

Might be on Youtube. It started with a nut with a knife on a roof and running around (IIRC). But I could be wrong on that.
 
There's a similar video on a officer who does the same with an MP-5. He shoots one next to the noggin of a downed supsect. It was claimed that the suspect was still wiggling so he shot next to his head to calm him.
Click to expand...

Is that supposed to be a good excuse?
 
It beats 'I'm stupid and my department skimped on my training'. Or does it?

Look at the world - do most people, step up and say - I'm stupid.

Cramer on John Stewart maybe?
 
How long does it take for someone to draw a weapon and fire one round? About 1-2 seconds. There are guys out there that can do it in less then a second easily.

Therefore, winning the gunfight comes down to fractions of a second at times. Having your finger on the trigger is less safe, but more effective. It will save valuable milliseconds which may mean the difference between life and death.
 
maybe that makes sense when its open war and you're in enemy territory, but for police, MOST of the time they arent in a situation where they need to fire their weapon. Like some have said, they've drawn while on duty many times but never fired.
 
I was trained by a very respected law enforcement agency that when pointed at a threat, the finger is on the trigger. If the threat is not imminent the weapon is in the "guard" position and finger is off trigger. We had this DRILLED into us. Pointed at threat.........finger ON trigger. If the threat is not real and imminent enough to warrant the finger on trigger, it is not real and imminent enough to be pointed at in the first place.
 
If you have a LEO pointing a gun at you with his or her finger on the trigger, the time to argue, correct or admonish them is not when such is occuring.

In short, complain to the administration after the situation has been resolved and you are "on your way".

Biker
 
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