Even this was avoidable.

All three of them came running back into the house, with Timothy in the lead. "Mom! We didn't touch it!"
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Good kids & well taught, I can only hope that mine will get their mothers level head and not get my curiosity and sense of adventure until they are about 14 or so:rolleyes:
 
Wow Kathy, fantastic parenting job there!! Edit: not being sarcastic. meaning great job for teaching your kids the right way.

I always keep my guns in a pistol safe. It has nothing to do with them being stolen, as someone could easily walk out the door with them. It has to do with 2 things.

1. When I was a fairly young kid (10-12 or so), I was often pretty depressed. Having access to a gun could VERY easily have made that much worse, because those thoughts were present back then.
2. I knew where everything in the house was...everything. I knew where my hidden Christmas presents were, where my sister kept her diary and anything that my parents didn't want me to know about. A "hidden" gun quite often isn't.

While I teach my older kid that if she wants to see any of my guns at ANY time all she has to do is ask and I'll immediately get them out for her, it's the thought of any other teenager or even her getting to that point that a gun seems like a way out.

I had a parent call my wife once during a slumber party for 12 12 year old girls (I'm still not over that party). She asked my wife if there were any guns in the house. At first I was a little offended. Who was she to invade my privacy. Then I realized she's got to be one of the most responsible parent's I've come across. We informed her that yes there are guns in the house. They are locked up at all times in rooms that the girls aren't going to be allowed in.
 
I definitely agree with keeping every firearm out of the hands of unhappy kids. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end. Really.

OTOH, the gun is nothing but a means to an end. I know a girl who was badly depressed, and drove her car into a bridge abutment at high speed, and when she came out of her coma, said that it was an accident. She opened up about a lot of things like that with me.

But, as mentioned before, I also knew a girl, maybe 20, who hanged herself, and another who took her parents' pills. My daughter was given razor blades by her grandmother, to use with art projects (Oh, come on!) and my daughter used them to cut herself.

Another case I know about, a woman came home after work. they have a barn. There was a strange noise in the barn when she got out of her car, and she went inside the house. Later, she went to see what the noise was, and her daughter's boyfriend had hanged himself there. The sound she heard was him kicking over the ladder. he was making a gesture, and expected her to go into a dark barn, not knowing who was in there, and rescue him.

Teen suicide is a terribly complex issue, and honestly, there really is no way to be certain that your kid can't get to a gun, other than have them stored off property. Unacceptable alternative, I understand. Even If you did move them all out, a suicidal teen will still find another way.

having children is a hard thing. Very hard. sometimes you can do all the right things, and it still winds up a nightmare.
 
We are discussing multiple issues here.

One issue is responsible handling and storage of firearms. I agree that in cases where there is any likelihood of unsafe persons (kids, mental incompetents, etc), the best practice is to lock up firearms. As I noted earlier, I secure my own.

Another issue is one of legal liability. While I do think the responsible thing to do is to keep one's firearms out of the hands of the unsafe, I don't think legal liability should attach for the actions of people who are not members of the household, period.

Firearms generate an emotional response, particularly from antis, and I understand that. Logically, however, if a kid wanders into my barn, grabs a pitchfork, axe, or chainsaw and then hurts another kid with it, should I expect a horde of accusers to scream at me for not locking up my pitchfork, axe, or chainsaw?

Should I expect to be held morally and legally liable if a family member's guest steals the keys to my truck from the kitchen counter, then steals my truck and has an accident?

If the answers to the above two questions were "no," then please explain the legal/moral difference with regard to firearms.

As a practical matter, it's safest to lock them up. As a legal matter, this should not be mandated, nor should the failure to lock up guns be any more criminal than the failure to lock up car keys, kitchen knives, or liquor cabinets.
 
I don't consider a 14 year old as a "child" in the sense of being too young to understand danger and be responsible. Being uneducated is something else altogether.
This type of behavior is the result of inadequate parenting by failing to enforce rules of courtesy and respect for another's possessions in addition to failure to give firearms safety lessons.
I grew up in a house with guns and raised my kids/grandkids likewise. Playing with toy guns does not preclude knowing firearms safety and even my 6 YO grandson knows the difference between a real gun and a toy.
 
MLeake

We are discussing multiple issues here.

One issue is responsible handling and storage of firearms. I agree that in cases where there is any likelihood of unsafe persons (kids, mental incompetents, etc), the best practice is to lock up firearms. As I noted earlier, I secure my own.

Another issue is one of legal liability. While I do think the responsible thing to do is to keep one's firearms out of the hands of the unsafe, I don't think legal liability should attach for the actions of people who are not members of the household, period.

Firearms generate an emotional response, particularly from antis, and I understand that. Logically, however, if a kid wanders into my barn, grabs a pitchfork, axe, or chainsaw and then hurts another kid with it, should I expect a horde of accusers to scream at me for not locking up my pitchfork, axe, or chainsaw?

Should I expect to be held morally and legally liable if a family member's guest steals the keys to my truck from the kitchen counter, then steals my truck and has an accident?

If the answers to the above two questions were "no," then please explain the legal/moral difference with regard to firearms.

As a practical matter, it's safest to lock them up. As a legal matter, this should not be mandated, nor should the failure to lock up guns be any more criminal than the failure to lock up car keys, kitchen knives, or liquor cabinets.
Click to expand...

To your list you might add prescription drugs (usually in a bathroom cabinet) and household chemicals (usually under the kitchen sink).

Some states have legal decisions which use a balancing test, the cost and effort to secure the item versus the amount of damage that could be done if the item were misused. Where the effort and cost is small in relation to the amount of potential harm, states tend to hold a person negligent (lack of reasonable care) if some damage is done and they did not secure the item that was misused by a third party.

As the scales tend to balance, the courts less often find negligence.

I remember tanking the car keys when no adult was around, my brothers and sister were someplace else too, going out to the car which was in the back of the house; and driving it forward and backwards about 10 times. All of about 25 feet in each direction. I doubt I exceeded 3 miles per hour. I was 13. Got my Louisiana driver's license at age 15.
 
maybe legally you are right, MLeake. besides that, I believe guns are a seperate entity(just my opinion). We don't hear about pitchforks killing people by accident.

I would like to say a 14yr old should know better, but I won't go there and maybe she shouldn't know better afterall.

The first thing my dad taught me about guns was to Never point them at someone. I had this beat into my head before I ever held one yrs later. Of course, just because that was my experience doesn't mean it was everyone else's too. Kids and young adults many times do point and shoot firearms out of some weird inclination, but pointing one at someone is a no-no and the main ingredient. Kids need to be taught this.

Also and sadly, young children due to smaller hands and/or less physical strength seem to shoot the weapon by somehow manipulating the weapon to point at themselves.
 
MLeake, as to your first post(the longer one): while I sympathize with your opinion and actually agree with many points(if not all of them), we are talking about a gun and not an altered cub cadet riding lawnmower. Please don't misconstrue that last sentence - I understand your point. I just think the example was different, that is all. Remember, no charges were brought upon this man. He isn't legally guilty of a crime here, and this tragedy can't be reversed. Nobody tried to crucify this guy, MLeake. Also remember, this man DID forget to make the weapon more safe; this usually wouldn't have happened.
 
While I largely agree with MLeake, there is a limitation that we need to recognize. In the story that started this thread, a responsible person was devastated by the events that happened when he left his gun out for a short time. I agree that that particular person should not be punished, but I also know that our society includes a large number of people who do not feel responsibility, remorse, or grief. The only thing that keeps the latter group from leaving loaded guns laying around completely unprotected (among other irresponsible practices) is the fear of criminal and civil consequences. I don't know how to write a law or policy that separates the responsible person to whom a tragedy occurs from the irresponsible individual who invites tragedy without thought or remorse.
 
I worry that I have gotten to lax since I live alone. My nephew who is 6 and loves all things weapons is not allowed in my basement when he comes over. I want to start teaching him gun safety. I got us a pair of model 94 22 revolvers with consecutive serial numbers;-) to start him out on but my sister is an ardent gun hater and says he is to young. What do you guys think? I think the sooner he learns they need to be respected and that they are not toys the better.
 
Hello jason_iowa,,,

I think it's the proper time for you to introduce your nephew to the
Eddie Eagle Gun Safety Program.

You're in a tough spot there,,,
Most of will agree that some training/indoctrination is in order,,,
But on the other hand the child is your sister's son and she has the final say on his activities.

Other than recommending Eddie Eagle,,,
I have no workable strategy.

Good luck.

Aarond
 
He doesn't need a gun to learn gun safety.
If mama says no to guns then no guns.
It should be fairly easy to convince her that he should learn gun safety however. Whether she likes guns or not she should certainly want her son to know what to do if he ever encountered one.
 
Just to make it clear I have no intention of giving a 6 year old a gun. It will stay at uncle jason's house until he is 21. He knows his uncle and papa carry and that he is never to touch them. He is more then curious though and kids love things that moms say they can't have.

Thank you for the link ill check that out. I just worry that the hands off policy will not cut it forever god knows it did not for me. I was hounding my dad and uncles to teach me anything and everything from cars and motorcycles to guns and swearing well before 6 and got a few uncles chewed out by the parents for teaching me things. I survived though.

Don't kick me off the forums but my sister took after her big brothers and we are all die hard bleeding heart liberals. I'm the only one who read past the first amendment on the bill of rights however. Everyone here knows how difficult it is to talk to an irrational gun hater but its my duty as an uncle to get it done so ill keep on her about it for the next couple of years.
 
Any adult visiting my home (happens very rarely) is warned at the door that my firearms are loaded, they are not toys, & they are not to be handled outside my presence. If someone wants to shoot my firearms I'm more than happy to oblige them...just not inside my home. If children are present, all firearms are stored in the safe without exception.
Mark, if it were my child that did what yours did she would be given a serious educational opportunity coupled with a draconian revocation of privileges. But, that is your household not mine & I'm not telling you how to steer your ship. Just stating my reaction would be much stronger than using her Christmas present fund to buy a new safe (although I would do that too).
 
Or the woman who was awarded $1M (I think) for spilling hot coffee in her own lap...
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Actually, the woman, Stella (somebody), should have been sued by McDonalds for being so stupid.

The initial award, by the jury, was close to three million IIRC, but the judge, by a legal process called remittur, reduced it to about six hundred thousand.

I spoke with a lawyer, who seemed to have access to more information than the general public, that the actual amount was later settled for a bit over two hundred thousand. The scuttlebutt was that McDonalds was about to actually sue her, or appeal, for, essentially, being too stupid to drink coffee and bringing about a case which should have been thrown out of court.

This was the case which brought about tort reform by legislators not informing their selves of the facts and being, essentially, too stupid to be making laws.
 
It seems that if our children are now taught about gay and alternate lifestyles, they can also receive a short block of instruction on firearms safety. The story mentioned happens over and over again. Just the names change. You know how it goes:
"my dad has a real gun."
" Cool, lemme see it!"

You can fill in the rest. Interestingly, hand someone a gun, even experienced gun users,and most often, their trigger finger automatically curls around the trigger.
 
Going through these, a "normal" person would be reading each one, and remarking about how irrational every one of those posts are.

"keep them locked up" (get rid of them!)
"Teach them" (get rid of them!)
"just like every other dangerous thing" (things aren't dangerous, guns are dangerous!)
"kids/parents/owners/so forth need to take responsibility for their own stupidity, and learn not what to do." (People shouldn't own things that can be used by kids to hurt themselves!)
"my home, my rules, stay out of my *** and you won't get hurt" (Atractive nuisance lawsuit!)

It's a frame of mind and perception. We see things in a more tactical and wider view. Prevent injury by complcated means, like training, locks, etc.

(prevent injury by getting rid of those damned guns!!!!!)
 
Leaving a loaded unattended in a house is irresponsible.
Why was the gun loaded in the first place.
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BS.

Why was it loaded? Because here in America, we have these things called "criminals" and once in a while criminals break into a person's home, and present a threat to the virginity of our daughters, among other things.

We, in america, value our daughter's virginity, among other things. we also take measures to prevent these goons from doing criminal actions.

THIS IS BEING RESPONSIBLE. PREVENTING MURDER AND/OR PHYSICAL HARM FROM BEFALLING YOUR FAMILY.

Please don't waste my time telling me that england is safe. I've seen enough of your sports hooliganism, and just watched riots in the streets. We need to thank england and other parts of europe for having inspired our local idiots to start sports riots and wall street riots.
 
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