European vs. Japanese Swordcraft

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danger Dave:
William, I thought that duel was just a legend. Is it documented? There are similar legends about a match between Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) and Mas Oyama (founder of Kyokushin-kai Karate). I don't know if they're true, either.[/quote]

The only documentation I have seen is in the biography by Eiji Yoshikawa, "Musashi." I do not remember the name of the staff weilder, but he struck Mushashi in the chest area and while the blow did not incapacitate Musashi he elected not to kill the staff man and commented that the blow nearly killed him.

Unfortunately, in a fit of generousity, I gave a friend my rare, hard-cover collection of the Musashi biography. It was published in serial form back in the 1930s, if I remember correctly.

I do not recall the incident being mentioned in Musashi's, "The Book of Five Rings."

I have not heard of the duel between O Sensei Ueshiba and Mas Oyama. Since Aikido's roots are so deep in sword work and because of his up close and personal experiences with personal combat I would think O Sensei would have no small advantage.

William
 
William, I, too have found that the best way to part with a good book is to loan it to a friend.

The Oyama/Ueshiba match allegedly (I doubt it took place, to be honest) amounted to Ueshiba "turning" Oyama until he got frustrated. That's about it - no blows landed, no one hurt. I have serious doubts about this ever happening.
BTW, Oyama was no stranger to fighting either - he was a bit of a thug in his younger days. He was known to enter bars filled with American servicemen in order to start fights, and Funikoshi quit teaching him when he killed a Yakuza (?) who pulled a knife on him. Then there's the bullfights...
 
Danger Dave's post is close to my understanding- though I believe the overall length of the Japanese sword was reduced from nodachi to the current katana's size at the same time the mounting of the sword changed.

As is often the case, I do not agree with Skorzeny, though I do not know that I can say he is wrong.

If I carried a manual weapon, I would be happy with a bastard sword for daily "reactive" carry. On the battlefield, my first preference for hand-to-hand would be a spear. If forced to use a sword, on foot, I would be happy with an old-style Claymore, or any good Japanese sword.

In the art I study, everytime we review staff, we are reminded that the staff is a weak weapon (at least, compared to the sword). As such, the staff user must always be ready to open the distance, as the user of a sharp has but to touch him to wound. None of the personal students of Unsui Sensei has yet been able to defeat him using staff versus sword.
 
In the art I study, everytime we review staff, we are reminded that the staff is a weak weapon (at least, compared to the sword). As such, the staff user must always be ready to open the distance, as the user of a sharp has but to touch him to wound.

Good point. The advantage the staff has over the sword is the multiple striking surfaces that allow for quicker follow-ups and better defensive capabilities, but it still takes power to do damage. I guess whoever maximizes their advantages and minimizes their liabilities is most likely to win the fight.

My terminology on Japanese swords is a bit weak these days, but IIRC, the Katana and the Tachi were the same weapon, only the furniture (scabbard, mainly) was different. The handguards, scabbards, and hilts were changed to suit the needs of the day, whether a day of war on horseback, ceremonial gathering, or a duel. The nodachi was a rather specialized sword. It looked a lot like a katana/tachi, but about twice as large. It was used much like the 2-handed European swords were used - mainly to defeat opposing cavalrymen. BTW, originally Japanese swords, or ken, were straight bladed like Chinese swords.

As for Skorzeny, he does have a way of stating his position that just makes you want to disagree with him, even if you don't know why.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danger Dave:
Oyama was no stranger to fighting either - he was a bit of a thug in his younger days. He was known to enter bars filled with American servicemen in order to start fights, ...[/quote]

I know we are starting to suffer from the dreaded topic creep, as defined by Sensop, but this reminded me of my friend Randy Jackson. He and my brother entered the Marines together. While in Japan in the early 70s Randy decided to study karate. At the end of the training session one of the instuctors (this was a large school) would call upon one of the students to attack. No holds barred. No rules. Many American servicemen were attending classes and none had ever touched an instructor in randori.

One day Randy was called up. As they assumed the traditional en gard positions Randy spit in the instructor's eyes. Now, Randy is a good ole boy and when we were growing up we thought the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms was a chest of drawers where the party supplies were kept. Randy had his lip packed with Copenhagen snuff. The juice this produces burns like fire in the eyes (been there, done that). The instructor's hands went up to his face and at that moment Randy smacked him with a right hook that put the instructor on the mat. Behind Randy the servicemen began cheering. At this point Randy made a tactical error: he turned and raised his hands and did a "Rocky" dance for the crowd. Big mistake. He allowed the instructor to get up. Instructor loses it. Randy gets thumped. After showers the instructor apologized to Randy and thanked him for the lesson. Very nice gesture.

During his stint in the Marines Randy cold-cocked a Major and walked away from the courts martial with a clean record. One day in the line at the mess hall he stuck a fork in a gentleman's eye who thought he could cut into line and make Randy like it. It don't pay to mess with hill people.

William
 
Many of Mas Oyama's exploits were largely mythical. Oyama was something of a self-promoter and, at least, one biographer has confessed that he was "told" by Oyama to include events that never occurred.

No doubt Oyama was a tough fighter and Karateka, but he was also something of a bull horn.

As for my writing style that seems to so infuriate some folks, all I can say is that I do inject some ribbing in my posts to make them interesting and to get some reactions. However, content-wise, I do not BS. I could be wrong or subscribe to mistaken beliefs, but I do not make things up.

As is said "you've already made up your mind. Don't let me try to confuse you with facts."

Cheers! This is a fun topic!

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
The divergence is because of the different philosophies in how to use a sword. Japanese swordsman preferred cutting, while European swordsman preferred stabbing and/or crushing blows ( Two handed swords,etc )

Japan didn;t use metal armor to the extent that Europeans did, so cutting/slashing worked well. Slashing/cutting on armored knights did not work so well, so two-handed swords were developed to bash through the armor, etc. Also its easier to stab through the armor chinks,etc.

As with all things some people just prefer a certain way to fight. Quick in and out ( rapier ), hold ground and deliver crushing blows ( claymores ).
 
My copy of "The Book Of Five Rings" is a Cleary translation. In my edition Musashi chose to retire from dueling undefeated. He did use an assortment of weapons, including the short and long swords. He also seems to have forsaken the swords at some time in his active career yet continued to inflict mortal blows.

While being paid to attend a school of serious non conventional combat, I had the pleasure of learning to defend against well wielded crutch and cast. Moral, if you break instructors leg he may try to break your head later.

If you are old, a staff is not all that out of place in public. A well fashioned cane is quite proper anywhere and with a bit of practice becomes an effective and deadly arm.

Sam
 
Skorzeny, I agree, it is a fun topic!

I would add that self-promotion is probably as old as martial arts schools themselves. If you've heard of someone in martial arts, odds are it's because they stood up on a podium and said "Look at me! See what I've done?". Take what you hear with a grain of salt. Even Sun Tzu's famous treatise was a resume/job application.
As for Oyama, his accomplishments speak for themselves.

As far as the question of the Greeks/Romans vs. Japanese, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The Samurai armies you seem to be describing represent the ultimate refinement of Japanese feudal warfare, at a time when the Greek/Roman armies were already ancient history. I think a better comparison would be the medieval European knight vs. the Samurai. :)

Or, even more interesting "What if the Mongol fleet hadn't been wiped out by the Kamikazi?"
 
The name of the samurai who defeated Miamoto Mushshi using a jo (A 40 t0 45 inch hardwood staff) in a registered duel was Muso Gozen. Considering that Miamoto Mushshi fought 67 registered duels and won 66 of them, Moso Gozen and hi jo were a formidable combination.
 
RMS,

In regards to: with the meji restoration, the police were tasked with disarming the samurai, the most sucsessful weapon was the
manriki-gusari(sp?) an @3' chain with iron handles...

I actually just finished a seminar where yari and jutte were taught. We were advised that the jutte (or jitte) was the most traditional police weapon. I have done a fair amount of training with the kusarifundo/manriki chain, but none of the training was vs sword- it was most often a "low observability" attack from someone who might have appeared unarmed.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spectre:
RMS,

In regards to: with the meji restoration, the police were tasked with disarming the samurai, the most sucsessful weapon was the
manriki-gusari(sp?) an @3' chain with iron handles...

I actually just finished a seminar where yari and jutte were taught. We were advised that the jutte (or jitte) was the most traditional police weapon. I have done a fair amount of training with the kusarifundo/manriki chain, but none of the training was vs sword- it was most often a "low observability" attack from someone who might have appeared unarmed.[/quote]

i can only conjecture, perhaps after the samurai were disarmed the techniques fell into disuse?

rms/pa
 
This is an interesting thread I wish I observed earlier.

Not to change the subject from this interesting lesson we are getting on japanese dueling... I have put some thought to this subject "which sword" and have come to a suprising conclusion on my own choice.
My first choice was a Katana as mentioned prior... but that would be advertising skill with the sword I do not have... that and Samuri pants look lame on me - rather like an middle-aged white MC Hammer. I still like the longer single edged sword... Much like a Cavalry Saber. Its long curved blade is very deadly and has a good line to it. But hefting the Saber is a different matter.
I have a Saber - a WWII German Officer's sword actually. Its quite eligant and would look dashing worn with a black suit to work... But it's short handle is one hand only... and its guard prevents the use of two if you tried.
Should I get caught in a mele I would use only one hand anyway - maybe two swords or a sword and a hatchet or dirk... either way. I feel the Saber doesnt have a very good balance for that type of fighting so my choice is again altered...
To the lowly Cutlas. Has a better balance for one hand use - but has some good blade mass for deeper penetrating slashes... since its also shorter and the point remains close to the centerline it is also great for jabbing and stabbing like a Gladius. The Cutlas has a little longer of a grip than the Saber I have, and a roomier guard so that two hands usage is an option.

Besides - the Cutlas was the sword of choice for the maritime fighters... Pirates.
To me - Nothing is cooler than the lor eof the pirates... evading tyranical justice - smuggling goods, boarding ships laden with treasure and taking them to secret hideaways... Big time adventure. A Samuri may have been a fantastic warrior - But a Pirate had much more fun... Looting and pilaging... The Samuri had his little cup of saki and his Gashia - but the Pirate had is bottles of ale and rum and a plethora of wenches for his taking... and he had a 26 gun frigate to back him up!

:D
 
Just my 2 cents about the manriki-gusari and the Jo or Jutte. I've read that the jutte was a tradional police weapon, but not for disarming samurai. When doing that, because they were on a druken spree usually, the fuedal police would surround a sword carrying samurai and use special pole arms designed to entangle his cloths and limbs. The pictures I saw had lots of jagged spikes on them. Remember police were commoners and not allowed to carry swords in the late feudal period and could get in serious trouble for killing a samurai caste member, so they were under severe disadvatages due to the powere structure of the time. As for the manriki, I suspect it would not be a good choice against the sword, having less killing and maiming power, little blocking ability and no reach advantage.

that may have been 4 cents not 2 :)

shiro
 
I'll tell you the best way of "disarming a [drunken] Samurai."

Try the SAS method - shoot him and move on...

That's practically what the peasant conscript "Imperial" army of the Meiji Restoration did to the Samurai army of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Well, I won't say it's impossible to disarm someone armed with a sword, but I wouldn't be real anxious to try. I think a net or weighted ropes/chains, big sticks, and plenty of help would be the order of the day.

George, the problem I see with all of those swords is finding the opportunity to bring it to bear defensively. Your opponent (e.g. mugger) is going to have the first move at hand-to-hand range, you have to react. I'd rather have something, even just a good walking cane, in my hand to help deflect the initial blow. Just my thoughts...

And I think, like any other fighter of great reputation, we have to take the Musashi stories with a grain of salt. Legends grow in their retelling, and often become larger than life.

And to add something about the Okinawan weapons - remember, the bo staff, nunchaku, kama sickles, and sai were primarily farm implements, not weapons. They were only adapted as weapons when the Japanese occupiers outlawed swords. So, on average, I think that they would not fare too well against a swordsman, barring mitigating circumstances (e.g. numbers, surprise, etc.).

[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited July 25, 2000).]
 
Larger weapons were preferred, and there was mention that poles between officers was a favored technique. The thing was, police couldn't well walk around all the time with 11' poles! They could, on the other hand, carry something in-between the 16 and 21" ASP length. The jutte had a guard designed to catch a sword blade, and was also used as badge of office.
 
Ya'll are forgetting Kama's....as a personal weapon.....one I would choose.....unfortunately Id probably hurt myself anymore...lol...fubsy.
 
Some months ago, TLC ran an hour show of the Arms and Armor series on swords, both European and Japanese. The most interesting part to me was where they had some Royal Marines dress in period clothing and engage in a carefully choreographed mock battle using two-handed broadswords. It seems they had discovered an old training manuscript dating back to the 1400's or 1500's, one of the few known to exist. They used this as their guide for the mock battle. It was truly amazing how versatile that big sword was. That shagreen blade cover in front of the guard serves a definite purpose, too. It could be used as a second hand grip in which the user brings the grip of the sword overhand in a skull-crushing maneuver using the guard. Lightning fast; you'd think the guys were using rapiers instead of broadswords.

Should one stab or cut? That's the basic difference. It seems that no one has been able to design a sword that can be as lightly handled and stabs like a rapier while at the same time being able to slash easily.

Personally, even though I'm not trained for it, I'd prefer a wakizashi backed with a Cold Steel Magnum Tanto. I've got the Tanto, just need the wakizashi. :)

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
As was mentioned previously, different cultures used different weapons due to availability and fighting technique. Filipino and Indonesian martial arts use swords that I would call "short swords" or "large knives". The kampilan was probably the only long sword that was carried and even that isn't that long. These arts rely heavily on close-quarters fighting, a long sword wouldn't be too effective in such a tight situation.

As far as which style of sword is better or which would be better it's like saying which style is better. I think it's the individual that is wielding the weapon be it a sword or staff or baston. Each weapon has to be used in the proper range to be effective so whoever can control that range for their particular weapon will have an advantage.

As for daily carry, I'd take a barong or a kris as they're small enough to use in a hallway or other tight spaces and for utility purposes. Lack in long range, but they aren't used for long range. If it were between a Euro sword and Japanese sword, I'd lean towards a wakizaki or a lighter Euro sword.
 
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