Enlighten me on 45 ACP
- Thread starter Claywms
- Start date
I have a simpleminded approach to your question.
Park your car in the back yard. The newer the car the better. No, let's make this personal; park your new pickup truck in the backyard.
Find a golf ball, a baseball, and a light bowling ball (say a 12 lb.er).
Back off 10 feet. Heave the golf ball as hard as you can at your new pickup truck. Do the same for the baseball (as hard as possible). Repeat with the bowling ball. I should add, aim all three projectiles at the same spot on your new pickup truck.
Campare and contrast the level of damage you see. My guess is you can throw a golf ball a good bit faster than the bowling ball. I will also predict the damage caused by a bowling ball is greater than the golf ball.
Park your car in the back yard. The newer the car the better. No, let's make this personal; park your new pickup truck in the backyard.
Find a golf ball, a baseball, and a light bowling ball (say a 12 lb.er).
Back off 10 feet. Heave the golf ball as hard as you can at your new pickup truck. Do the same for the baseball (as hard as possible). Repeat with the bowling ball. I should add, aim all three projectiles at the same spot on your new pickup truck.
Campare and contrast the level of damage you see. My guess is you can throw a golf ball a good bit faster than the bowling ball. I will also predict the damage caused by a bowling ball is greater than the golf ball.
CastleBravo
New member
I also predict your analogy makes no sense, because the weight difference between a golf ball and a bowling ball is so much bigger than the difference between 230 grains and 147 grains. False analogy.
Master Blaster
New member
BIG Heavy Slow Goooood.
Light very fast Goooood.
Rocks thrown by hand Not Goood
Light very fast Goooood.
Rocks thrown by hand Not Goood
Awww, BIGSLOWHEAVY, all this time I thought your handle was a self description!
Never trust people who make absolute statements about the future - especially if it's YOUR future.
The Boy Scouts have a good motto.
All calibers are equally lethal? A .22LR has killed a grizzly, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Accidents happen, and the lousy team sometimes wins, but a wise man doesn't bet that way. If it's my life, or the life of my familiy that is on the line, I want to stack the deck as much as possible in my favor. Will that guarantee that I will win? Of course not. But it's stupid not to.
So the question which round is more likely to stop an assailant is a very important question, one asked by the astute, and scorned by the... uh, less than astute.
Yes, it's been overemphasized by some, to the exlusion of the more important question of marksmanship and tactics (both of which factor into shot placement). But that does not mean that it is irrelevant.
RELEVANT
A .355" 115g JHP art 1300fps + is extremely effective; a 135-155g .400" at 1200-1400fps ditto; a .452" 185-230g JHP same.
And let's not forget "Grandpa", the 125g JHP from a 357 magnum revolver (if velocity doesn't matter why is this load better than the 38 Special?)
So cartridge choice is NOT moot, but more important is still where the projectile you've launched actually impacts.
A .355" 115g JHP art 1300fps + is extremely effective; a 135-155g .400" at 1200-1400fps ditto; a .452" 185-230g JHP same.
And let's not forget "Grandpa", the 125g JHP from a 357 magnum revolver (if velocity doesn't matter why is this load better than the 38 Special?)
So cartridge choice is NOT moot, but more important is still where the projectile you've launched actually impacts.
Several months ago, ABC's 20/20 had a "report" on how "dangerous" some new BB guns (Daisy Powerline?) were. Typical antigun media garbage is what it was.
There was one part where they showed a "gun expert" firing one of these BB guns and measuring the velocity. They then showed the same guy firing and measuring the velocity of a .38 special revolver. The end result of their "test" was that the BB was traveling slightly faster than the .38 bullet (the numbers they gave were in the low 700fps ballpark). What they were trying to imply was that the BB gun a "child" might have was a "deadlier" weapon than a revolver a police officer might carry because the projectile's velocity was higher. Their "report" failed to mention the difference in mass between the .38 bullet and the BB (probably about fifteen times the mass). A .38 hole about twice the diameter of a BB hole and about 4 times the area (and all of this is before a .38 even expands).
Their website had a summary of that report they did. There, they mentioned the BB gun was pumped BEYOND the maximum number of times the manufacturer recommended. Depending on the load, some .38sp's can exceed 1000 fps. I wonder what kind of numbers one would get if loads were made BEYOND what ammunition manufacturers specified. What they really did is manipulate things until they got the results they wanted (over pumped the BB gun and made sure to use a light .38 load), but even that doesn't matter.
The point is, higher velocity by itself does not mean more "deadly" or "effective". A .38sp (even with the lightest loads), is far more "effective" than a BB gun, regardless of velocity. The numbers they gave were targeted to an audience that knew very little or nothing about firearms in an attempt to pursuade them.
There was one part where they showed a "gun expert" firing one of these BB guns and measuring the velocity. They then showed the same guy firing and measuring the velocity of a .38 special revolver. The end result of their "test" was that the BB was traveling slightly faster than the .38 bullet (the numbers they gave were in the low 700fps ballpark). What they were trying to imply was that the BB gun a "child" might have was a "deadlier" weapon than a revolver a police officer might carry because the projectile's velocity was higher. Their "report" failed to mention the difference in mass between the .38 bullet and the BB (probably about fifteen times the mass). A .38 hole about twice the diameter of a BB hole and about 4 times the area (and all of this is before a .38 even expands).
Their website had a summary of that report they did. There, they mentioned the BB gun was pumped BEYOND the maximum number of times the manufacturer recommended. Depending on the load, some .38sp's can exceed 1000 fps. I wonder what kind of numbers one would get if loads were made BEYOND what ammunition manufacturers specified. What they really did is manipulate things until they got the results they wanted (over pumped the BB gun and made sure to use a light .38 load), but even that doesn't matter.
The point is, higher velocity by itself does not mean more "deadly" or "effective". A .38sp (even with the lightest loads), is far more "effective" than a BB gun, regardless of velocity. The numbers they gave were targeted to an audience that knew very little or nothing about firearms in an attempt to pursuade them.
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
RHarris,
Wouldn't you love to send those BB gun idiots out on a cape buffalo hunt with one so they might write another story (from the grave!) about how effective the Daisy is?
Wouldn't you love to send those BB gun idiots out on a cape buffalo hunt with one so they might write another story (from the grave!) about how effective the Daisy is?
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
You are right, RAE. But I want the cameras rolling as they try this!
Guess I'd better order a piddle pack before it airs, or put a portable TV in the bathroom!
Guess I'd better order a piddle pack before it airs, or put a portable TV in the bathroom!
4thHorseman
New member
One thing I noticed some of you guys keep mentioning is the use of the .38 cal in the Phillipines. It should be made mentioned, it is not the same bullet as the .38 special as of today. It was a different bullet altogether, just the same diameter projectile. The ballistics between the two are not even close. I'd have to look it up if need be, but the 38 special came into existance much later in history.
Ahhhhh, I can think of one thing that everybody missed in the discussion. 9mm, .40, and .45 are pretty much equally effective when at their best. However with the .45, and to a lesser extent the .40, you can still have effectiveness if your favorite pet load isn't available. Even .45 ball is more than adequate as a defensive round, even if it is no longer ideal. Virtually ANY of the available .45 JHP's will get you through the night if your pet load is on backorder at the local shootin' shop. The .40 rounds are potentially in the same league, although there are probably more dogs in that caliber. The 9mm however, while very effective in its best loadings (Cor-Bon, Remington +P) can be a REAL dog with most of the older standard velocity rounds. 9mm ball is a total joke, the 147gr JHP isn't much better, and standard pressure 115 or 124gr is merely adequate. I feel just fine using a 9mm as long as I have +P ammo on hand, but if not it's going to be either .40 or .45ACP.