Enlighten me on 45 ACP

C

Claywms

New member
Hello TFL,

I'm a newbie when it comes to handgunning and "stopping power" and all that stuff, so your patience is appreciated. I bought a Ruger P97 45 ACP pistol and so far I really like it and am becoming a fairly good shot, though I need much more practice. Anyway, my question is about the "legendary" 45 round. I know it's darned big compared to, say, 9mm, which is why my own simplistic reasoning is attracted to it. But the velocity....it just seems so dang SLOW compared to 9mm and 40 s&w. Does it really penetrate well while moving at about only 800 (or so) feet per second? I like the big BIG bullet, just wish it moved a little faster! Is this a dumb thing to worry about? I guess the round has proven itself. So I'm wondering, is its effectiveness only a function of the sheer size....like getting hit with a bat rather than a bullet?
 
What do you think is more likely to kill you, a bus traveling 50mph or a bb at the speed of sound. :)

There's more to "stopping power" then speed, remember that the amount of energy transfered is a function of both speed and mass.

Also, for stopping power, penetration can work against you. I've been reading Black Hawk Down and one of the Rangers in the book noticed that when shooting at "Sammies" with his CAR-15 loaded with FMJs that the high velocity FMJs where just going right through the people he was shooting, therefore having little effect unless you hit their spine, heart or brain.

Part of why .45acp is an effective man stopper is that it's big and slow, therefore less likely to overpenetrate.


However the most important element of "stopping power" is shot placement, so practice practice practice ;)
 
45ACP is Big and Fat and Doesn't need to expand to make a Big Hole !!

The 45ACP was created to Replace the 38's that didn't cut it during the (Phillipine Uprising?).
 
Try shooting 185 gr +P. Its moving pretty well as far as speed goes. Muzzle velocity is around 1140 and 534 lbs of energy from a 5" muzzle pistol. The .40 155gr. round from Speer is pushing 1160 and has less energy. Either way, I dont want to be on the recieving end of either of these rounds.;)
 
First, its not going to make a huge difference whether you pick 9mm, 40 cal, or 45 ACP.

I wouldnt worry too much about the relatively slow velocity of a 45. All handgun cartridges are low velocity, even things like 357 mag. None of them have enough velocity to cause the same type of effects as a high powered rifle. The main thing more velocity will do at handgun speeds is allow JHPs to expand better so you make a bigger hole. This may result in more "energy transfer" to your target, but again for handguns, this energy transfer is not big.

The only physiologic damage caused by a handgun round is the result of the bullet passing thru tissue. There is no "blast" effect, and temporary stretch cavities dont matter too much for handgun rounds.

A high powered rifle is different, and cellular disruption does in fact occur in the tissue around the path of the bullet, and even tissue not directly in contact with the bullet will be affected. The story of 223s zipping thru people without causing much problem is a little hard for me to believe, but most of my experience has been with people shot with handguns.
 
Dittos to all of the above, and if it still concerns you, look at the classic dangerous game rifles-they also launch heavy bullets at comparatively slow velocities. I have reloaded 155 grain LSWC's at better than 1200 fps without getting out of spec, but its really not necessary when you have projectiles designed to expand at normal 45ACP velocities. Even if you get zero expansion, you're still going to put a half inch hole in what you hit. Another added advantage is the Ruger is a very strongly built weapon, and I would venture to guess that you and your kids and probably your grand children will not wear it out, even if you went to +P loads. My father used to tell me that if it will kill a mature white tail deer, it will do the same on a human being, so I would say not to worry-you certainly are not under gunned!
 
Claywms,

Caliber/Ammo is a very emotional subject. Lots of good folks will give contracting advice.

Here is my perspective based on the physics:
- 230 gr ammo in 45 ACP is great for suppressed shooting!
- Not shooting suppressed? 185 gr ammo in 45 ACP is more powerful and has greater potential for expansion.
- CCW? Stay away from 230 gr ammo because it is less effective at stopping and more likely to over penetrate (potentially wound innocents) compared to 185 gr ammo.
- On the battlefield? Go for the 230 gr 45 ACP. It may penetrate several troops in a row!

As I said, it is an emotional subject and lots will claim “momentum” or “penetration” to justify the poor performance of 230 gr bullets for un-suppressed CCW.

Good luck!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
Speed isn't everything and you want the bullet to slow down on impact and transfer the energy to the target. A faster rd may go through the medium and therefore not transfer the total energy of the rd to the target. The .45 was designed to have a 800 FPS velocity.
 
There is a single thread in constant motion through every pistol board on the internet. It's usually labeled stopping power - although "Stoping Power" made the rounds last month.

It's not like asking whether you'd prefer to get hit by a bus at 55 or a BB. It's like asking whether you'd prefer to get hit by a Porsche 911 going 100 or a Ford Taurus going 65. Answer - neither, since you are very, very likely to wind up dead in either.

You can look at statistics, in which case you will start eating better and getting more exercise because you are 10,000 times more likely to die from heart disease. Gun fights? Well, it seems that more than half of all shooting fatalities are suicides, so "stopping power" is moot.

Pistol shooting is a hobby and you're never going to have to shoot anyone - in fact over 90% of all police officers never fire their pistols a single time in their entire careers. It's a hobby - have fun and shoot safely!
 
Just to add a little spice to the pot:

The typical "slow" 230gr .45acp FMJ will penetrate 27" of ballistic gelatin.

The typical 115gr 9mm FMJ going far faster (and with a sharper ogive) will penetrate 3" less, with 24" of ballistic gelatin.

May not mean much to some, but it does go to show that the .45acp can and will hold it's own in the field of penetration.

Also, don't fall into the delusion that a good many others have fallen victim - that the .45acp doesn't over-penetrate.
This is certainly far from the truth. The .45acp can easily become more of a deep-digging-horror than the 9mm depending on the chosen load.

Always be ever-vigilant of what's behind your target whenever the situation allows.
 
Claywms . . .

You have touched on one of TFL's most controversial topics, and one that while often discussed is never resolved. I believe in the .45 ACP round and have many semiautomatics (both 1911A1s and others) chambered for it. Many experts will debate the "scientific evidence" of the .45 ACP versus the 9x19mm, the .357 Sig, the .40 S&W and so forth. In addition, the fundamental physics of handgun loads is also frequently examined.

I respectfully suggest you apply two simple, common sense standards to your deliberations:
> First, the .45 ACP round has been a proven "man stopper" for almost a hundred years in the widest conceivable variety of situations (combat, law enforcement, personal defense, and so forth). Therefore, its essential efficacy is unquestionable.
> Second, accuracy is the overriding criteria for successful self-defense. Any of the popular handgun loads (in .38 Special/9x19 or larger) certainly packs adequate punch to quickly disable a felon, IF DELIVERED WITH REASONABLE ACCURACY.

Stop worrying and keep practicing.
 
How many documented times has a soldier shot thru several troops in a row at once with a 45, or any other caliber? I guess it might have happened, but dont think it would happen enough to justify recommending a certain bullet type.

As far as overpenetration with FMJs is concerned, I dont believe it commonly results in injuries to bystanders. Missed shots (which are very common in real world shootings) pose a far greater threat to other people.

Remember that your target is not going to just stand in front of you like a silhouette and give you a nice clean frontal shot. He may be behind barriers. You may have to take an odd angled shot at him, and need more penetration to get to his vitals.

Under ideal circumstances, I agree JHPs are better choices, but in the real world, I am not sure that is really so. Without penetration, shot placement is irrelevant.

Consider this example, a real world case I sawno long ago. A man was shot at an odd angle with a 9mm FMJ, shot more or less from below and to the left side. The bullet entered the lateral aspect of his left arm, just above the elbow, fairly obliquely, and angled upward, but missed the bone in his arm. It exited the inner side of his arm about an inch below his axilla, about 5 inches from the entrance wound. It then entered the lateral side of his left chest just below the axilla, and continued heading upward and to the right for about another 12 inches just skimming his left lung, and finally stopped in the RIGHT side of his neck. It penetrated his spine in the neck, fractured a vertebral body, and did damage to his spinal cord in the neck.

As far as I can tell, the bullet penetrated about 17 ir 18 inches of flesh, and still had enough energy to bust his spinal cord. If this guy had been shot with something that penetrated less, or that had less energy after 18 inches of penetration, then his injuries would have only been minor.

In love and war, penetration is everything.
 
Clay, I'm also a newbie, and have read a great deal both on other websites, and here, about the elisive concept of 'stopping power'. Here's what I concluded.

1) All calibers are absolutely lethal.
2) Shot placement is everything.

The only time I tend to become a bit uncertain about the caliber is when you drop to .32 or below, but those rounds are for close-in scenarios, not the kind of 7+ yard shooting that is common in a home defense scenario.

This website has a lot of good information about different rounds for defense. The 'advocacy' articles are particularly insightful.

http://greent.com/40Page/contents.htm
 
Last edited:
You consider yourself a "Newbie?" I've been shooting for 37 years and I learn something new almost every day. I consider myself a "Newbie" also. There has been much speculation, and of course a lot of research as you've witnessed so far. Two reports, after studying every handgun death from .22 CB cap to .44 Magnum concluded the caliber DID NOT MATTER. It was bullet placement that mattered most. With modern ammo technology, the playing field is nearly level on a lot of calibers. If you want the Ultimate Self Defense machine, a Remington 870 with Ghost Rings, extended mag and safety, loaded with Buckshot. Proven big cat killer in Africa and wicked psychological weapon, but impractical for every day carry. After all the hundreds of handguns I've owned, I prefer a Hi-cap 9mm loaded with CorBon, backed up with a magazine of Silvertips. I don't think it can be beat as I can handle the 9mm in double taps, etc. And, to add to the mix, I just found a S&W 4516 and it's on it's way to my house. Another .45acp I'll probably practice with and carry for awhile. Isn't life grand? An old Zen khoen. Beware of the person with one weapon. They probably practice and know how to use it.
 
I think that while bullets from .38 special on up can be reliably lethal, cartridge choice is less critical with the .45 ACP. The best 9mm designs have the same "stopping power" as a .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

Modern bullet design has helped hollow points immensely. Still, nothing brings a handgun to the level of a shotgun or rifle.
As an example of this, look at the Moro uprising in the Phillipines at the turn of the last century. They would get into the barracks at night and start hacking apart soldiers. The .38 revolvers did not stop them, and neither did the .45 revolvers and semi-autos. The only thing that did was the shotgun. A handgun is a comprimise between portability and power.
 
Another bigger is better fan here.

So I prefer 45acp 230 grain variants.

--

By the way, it is interesting that the 45acp 230 is considered the benchmark by so many. There is a reason for that, I'd imagine.
 
Claywms, the fatter the wound channel created by the bullet the more damage will be done and the blood loss will be quicker. Stopping power is really just a fad word. For the quickest best stopping powed try a hand grenade or a morter or 500 lb. bomb because that would stop anything in a flash. But with bullets stopping swiftness is determined by many things, mindset of shooting victim, rate of blood loss, if there is a central nervous system hit, or if the heart is destroyed. With a central nervous system hit the victim will be stopped instantly, like turning off a light switch. With the destruction of the heart the victim will die quickly. And when a bullet hits the victim and misses the heart or central nervous system the swiftness of the shooting victim being stopped will be determined by their surrender or continued struggle or their loss of conciousness from blood loss. Now the human body can pump all blood out of the body in about 45 seconds. The rate of blood loss will be determined by the size of the wound channel and if any arteries or veins are severed. With a larger wound channel the odds of hitting a vein are increased and bleeding is also increased. With an exit wound the bleeding will be even quicker so loss of conciousness from blood loss should ensue more swiftly.

The bigger the wound channel the quicker the victim will bleed to the point of unconciousness. With an exit wound the victim should become unconcious even quicker. So the way I see it, bigger and faster is better than big and slow or small and fast. 10 mm would be almost ideal, too bad it never caught on...
 
Claywms - Most everyone has already addressed the bigger=better aspects of the .45, I'll stick to the velocity issue.

it just seems so dang SLOW ... Does it really penetrate well while moving at about only 800 (or so) feet per second?
Click to expand...

Do a little thought scenario and you can answer this for yourself. First walk 800 feet (2 2/3 football fields). Now picture doing that distance in 1 second. Then picture putting an obstacle in the way such as a human body as you go that 800 feet in that 1 second. Do you suppose it would hurt one or both of you? 800 fps is fast, not slow.

I wouldn't care what was going 800 feet per second, I sure wouldn't want it to hit me! Whether it's a 40 grain .22 bullet or a 230 grain .45 bullet, it would do a lot of damage to an unprotected human. It's sure not going to just bounce off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top