English losing faith in their Hillarycare

As I said, I DO have dual citizenship and I lived there for much of my life. I had to make use of the health care system in Scotland several times. I am telling you the God's honest truth here.

I have to wait longer to get in here in America. I wait longer in waiting rooms here in America. Having lived and experienced both system, the wait, IMO, is just another propaganda talking point thrown out there by the system in place here that wants you to keep making them billions of dollars.

As for the other point? Hmm. This is a GUN forum. Gun rights in Britain are rather dismal. My family lives here in the United States, and as I said- I'm in school here. Since I'm posting on a gun forum it stands to reason that gun rights are also quite high on my agenda, as I spend my free time here and no on national heatlh forum sites (if they exist?).

Anyhow, I have never liked the argument "if you don't like it, why don't you get out!" Someone yelled that at Ralph Nader once, and he replied by stating that if you don't like something- you don't leave it, you try to change it. This is my country. It isn't without it's faults. If you leave every country that you dislike something about, you'll end up living in Antarctica.

Who knows? Maybe one day I'll have to buy the parka and learn penguin.
 
I also challenge the title of this thread.

Hillary-care? Hillary isn't for national health care. She gave up on that agenda when she excepted a nearly 1 million dollar bribe from the industry! (About as much as BushDeuce got) Hillary is another suit. She'll give you more on the same on this front. I could respect her more when she didn't give a rat's behind and stuck to her guns on this issue. Some of the thinking here is so amazingly backwards. It can almost be assured that eventually, probably inside of the next 15-20 years, America will have social medicine. Are you lot all gonna flee to...wait, what other modern advanced democratic country uses the HMO dollars for diseases system again? None?! Hm.

But oh no! It's socialism! Run for the hills! Psh. The government is already so involved in so many facets of our lives, are you kidding? If you're against social medicine because of the fed.gov, are you also against, the police, fire department, 911, the posts office, and other social programs??
 
I also challenge the title of this thread.
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I actually responded to this topic before the database took a nosedive, bringing up this very issue. There are some pretty fundamental differences between the plan currently being proposed by Clinton and the UK's NHS.

Not fundamental enough that those opposed to the latter are likely to embrace the former, of course...but calling it "England's Hillarycare" is a bit...

...I'm not coming up with anything nice to say.
 
Our perception of American healthcare is that at its best it is second to none, but it's eyewateringly expensive and even if you are comfortably rich with a policy that pays 90% of the costs (unusual in itself) it still leaves you a huge chunk of change to find that will probably break you. Whatever changes we may make to our healthcare policy, we certainly don't intend to copy yours
 
Mk VII said:
Our perception of American healthcare is that at its best it is second to none, but it's eyewateringly expensive and even if you are comfortably rich with a policy that pays 90% of the costs (unusual in itself) it still leaves you a huge chunk of change to find that will probably break you. Whatever changes we may make to our healthcare policy, we certainly don't intend to copy yours
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you get what you pay for. its a very simple statement, and its entirely true. the majority of americans are not rich. in a truly free market, the prices would reflect what the market could bear. for those that still couldnt afford it, there is always charity. americans are some of the most charitable people on the planet.
 
defjon -

you seem to be under the impression that because "everyone has an opinion" that therefore "all opinions are equally valid." (As well as the corollary, that somehow because you really believe something, it's more true).

Although common in this day and age, those ideas are patently absurd.

Example - I can argue at length that jumping out a 10th story window won't hurt me, but no matter how fervently I argue for it, I'll still go splat when I hit the pavement.

Mr. Kloos has not only argued you on philisophical grounds, he has also repeatedly pointed out that your arguments hinge on false - at times egregiously false (25% mortality rate?!) data.

Therefore, your opinion is worthless without either refuting Mr. Kloos' data or conceding his point and salvaging your position from there. You have done neither. Pointing that out is not a personal attack.

Now to the meat of things though.

You cannot legislate charity.
All the practical reasons Mr. Kloos and others have given you are true of course, but it goes deeper than that.

Charity literally cannot be dictated, because once you create a legal obligation, you create a sense of entitlement amongst the receivers and a sense of resentment amongst the 'givers.' The very 'heroism' you speak of so blithely is made impossible, and you have poisoned the well of human kindness. I don't expect you to truly understand this until you've left the nest of parents and school and start having to pay your own way on what's left after the gov't gets its share, but trust me - the time will come - and soon - when you will.

In short - you're not only stealing money, you're stealing my Warm Fuzzies when you say I have to give.

-K
 
This slogan "FREE HEALTHCARE" keeps popping up. I seem to recall a line somewhere about "you get what you pay for." (note: I don know that taxes go into it but hey it goes to the government BEFORE it goes to the healthcare system...)
 
These days it goes to the HMO or Insurance co. first

For $11,000 per year, co-pays, and deductables for a family plan, I would say that's a pretty heavy tax. When people ask "What kind of insurance do you have?" I tell them " I have the kind that you pay a lot per month and still pay when I go to the doctor" 10 years ago, my insurance was less and covered just about everything. Now it's twice as much and covers much less. And add to that many doctors aren't taking patients and the insurance companies encourage you to go to walk-in clinics for healthcare to get treated by a nurse practicioner vs a doctor.
I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I've had some rough times with medical bills and doctors.
Oh, and how about the time the insurance agent told me we were covered for maternity and we were'nt and I had to pay for the delivery of our first child "up front"? Insurance co's response: Oh he must have mis-represented the policy but he's no longer is with us. We're sorry.
People who don't think our healthcare system isn't getting worse are naive or have luckily never had to use it.
Sorry, rant over.
 
There is no doubt that things are a lot less than optimum. The AMA limits the number of medical school students to maintain an artificial doctor shortage. Doctors are required to perform routine procedures that a nurse could easily perform. The lawsuit environment has many unnecessary procedures performed as CYA. The outrageous lawsuit awards get passed on to other patients through the higher overhead fees needed by doctors to pay liability insurance. Pharmaceutical companies also have to charge huge amounts for medications to pay for liability insurance. Everything hits the patient via poor service and high prices. The ironic thing is that those who have done the greatest damage, the tort lawyers, get rich and then go into politics claiming that they will fix the system by taking even more of your money.
 
The thing about the British NHS is it provides a safety net, so that everyone- including the very poor can get treatment.

Many brits take out top up insurance to provide for improved standards of care.
 
I got reasonably good care from the military I thought. I wasn't a slacker or a druggie or whatever an earlier poster claimed was the majority of people seeking healthcare in the military. Neither are those folks getting wounded in Iraq and I believe they are getting pretty good care over there. It is the stateside long term care that is called into question as far as I know. I don't think a national healthcare system will be as good or the same thing though. But, a certain women who wants to implement it here, will make it work great, she is the smartest woman in the world don't you know? :rolleyes:
 
Just got back from family's house...and here is a prime, real life example for you people. I have a very dear uncle who worked for a major oil company for 40+ years, EG: very good benefits, great insurance, etc. Long story short, he has cancer, and has been fighting it now for over a year. They've done as much chemo as can be done.

They are now trying some experiemental drug, and the cost is over $9,000 dollars a month. A month. They have already taken out a second morgage. This illness will bankrupt them. Not only will she lose her husband, she'll lose her home, and everything that she's ever had and ever worked for. Think about how fast a serious illness can burn through everything you have. This is real life, happening now.

I understand the counter arguments. I'm no fan of socialism or big government. However, there has got to be a better way.

There IS something morally wrong about walking into a doctor's office and seeing ADVERTISEMENTS for prescriptions! If a doctor is getting paid by a pharmo-company each time he prescribes a drug, there is a conflict of interest folks.

Like I said, I hear you all...but I really hope none of you ever have to get very sick and die slowly here in America. If you're sick enough...no matter how hard you've worked, no matter how long...it is going to sink you. It is going to sink the family you leave behind. I feel sorry for you.

As of now, if I suddenly got some kind of cancer...I would make use of that dual citizenship and be on the next plane to the U.K.
 
No system covers experimental treatment. The UK system has about a 60% fatality rate for cancer while in the US right now WITHOUT socialized medicine it is about 15%. This is assuming early detection in both cases.

The fed has a proven lack of ability (social security/medicare) in tending to the individual well being of people. Looking to the fed for more then national well being is fruitless.

It's you, then your family, then your community, then your city, then your county, then your state, then the fed. These are the pieces, smallest to largest, that are what a nation consists of. The range of the effect of the problem reveals at what level the problem should be addressed. An individuals health, or lack thereof, is personal and the range of effect doesn't go past family, possibly community is it is very close knit. Should the illness be communicable then the range expands of course and if epidemic then it expands further.

The scenario you presented is tragic. The family and friends of this man must be devastated. And surly this isn't a lone instance. The lose of a beloved family member is heart rending. Despite this it does not effect the nation as a whole. Even the most callous communities have rallied together to provide, via donations, the financial resources needed. Fortunately people are still very generous when a cause is brought to their attention. The answer is quite appropriately to make the cause known and watch the community respond. It shouldn't be less acceptable to ask the community to donate then it is to force the nation to surrender their earnings.
 
Well, defjon,
I think you've been expained to death the counterpoints in theory. All I see left is to be extremely blunt. My following statement is to not offend nor hurt you or your loved ones. Please understand this statement before reading on...


I've worked hard and went from dirt poor to making a decent living and having decent insurance. I have enough now to pay for Aflac, life insurance, and premiums on my primary. If I fall ill like your uncle, I'm covered to a certain degree. I don't know of any insurance company off hand that would pay for experimental drugs, more less a gov't funded health care system. The additional taxes taken one that's set up like me may have to rethink on how he should be additionally covered, since one is not going to bring home as much money. I, myself, would have to make a lifestyle change, but still be OK. Others may not have that luxury.

The way I see it is that I feel for you, your uncle, and your family. But, the bottom line is that in a private sector I have the choice to be employed by a company that has the insurance I feel is best for me. Even with the issues at hand, there are insurance companies that have good medical benefits. Aflac is a great supplemental that covers bills that a primary insurer doesn't. Raised taxes limits options for individuals that are on the bubble for additional coverage. In other words...IMO you are advocating for the government to take even more taxes out of my pocket and not allowing me to make the choice on how I invest in providing health care for me and my family. That doesn't set well in my stomach. Calloused as it may sound, but I choose my earned money to provide the healthiest lifestyle that I reasonably afford, not MY money to provide yours an experimental drug that may or may not work.

That's the bottom line.
 
I don't think Defjons counterpoints are theory but practice

I think you've been expained to death the counterpoints in theory.
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Just got back from family's house...and here is a prime, real life example for you people. I have a very dear uncle who worked for a major oil company for 40+ years, EG: very good benefits, great insurance, etc. Long story short, he has cancer, and has been fighting it now for over a year. They've done as much chemo as can be done.

They are now trying some experiemental drug, and the cost is over $9,000 dollars a month. A month. They have already taken out a second morgage. This illness will bankrupt them. Not only will she lose her husband, she'll lose her home, and everything that she's ever had and ever worked for. Think about how fast a serious illness can burn through everything you have. This is real life, happening now.
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I have enough now to pay for Aflac, life insurance, and premiums on my primary.
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Have you ever had to use it? You might be surprised what they actually give you. I recently found out the Aflac coverage available thru my job didn't cover me on any on the job injuries I might incur. I spend most of my life on the job! I changed it to a flat payout for days in hospital or visits to the emergency room to help cover the deductables that my $11000 per year insurance doesn't cover.
I have the choice to be employed by a company that has the insurance I feel is best for me.
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Most people don't have that opportunity. I'm not being a wiseguy, but I am glad that you are very fortunate in that regard and I wish you good health.
 
mountainclmbr
The ironic thing is that those who have done the greatest damage, the tort lawyers, get rich then go into politics claiming that they will fix the system by taking even more of your money
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:mad:

+1,000,000

Saw an interesting bumper sticker the other day;

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free!":D
 
I recently found out the Aflac coverage available thru my job didn't cover me on any on the job injuries I might incur. I spend most of my life on the job!
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I don't know what your job is, but it's untrue in my scenario. The only time it doesn't cover me is when I have to go up for flight testing. Although that happens frequently in my profession, I'm willing to take my chances.

PM me if you need some contact info. so that the thread doesn't go off topic...

Most people don't have that opportunity. I'm not being a wiseguy, but I am glad that you are very fortunate in that regard and I wish you good health.
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Every redblooded legal American has the opportunity. Not everybody ultimately gets everything in life, but we are in the best situation and in the best nation in the world for one to make the best of his/her own life. If something happens to me, so be it. This place is only a pitstop for me. I believe in this regard people step over dollars to pick up a dime. 75 years of pain is well worth the eternity of utter happiness...
 
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