engage the shooter?

Tell me again why I am supposed to lay down my life for those that haven't bothered to learn to defend themselves? While it sounds cool, it really seems to have a lot of very risky and expensive drawbacks.
Click to expand...

Our soldiers, sailors and airmen do it every day--and for a pittance in pay. The Coast Guard regularly risks all to save ignorant boaters who pay no attention to weather reports. Firemen risk all to save people who refuse to install smoke detectors.

And so on and so on.

To a certain extent, I believe in the karma of "what goes around, comes around."

Why should a banker risk money to lend you some when you haven't learned to budget, save and sacrifice in order to not need a loan?

Why should a doctor perform a lung transplant or liver transplant for chronic smokers or drinkers who haven't learned or pay no attention?

My faith teaches me that I am "my brother's keeper." Our nation was founded on the principle that while we were all created equal, we do not all have equal abilities.

Am I saying that we should all be "cops" and constant guardians of anyone and everyone all the time? No. But if you are in a situation to render aid and possibly/probably save someone's life and you fail to do it because you are more concerned with your own, then I submit that you only perpetuate the "me first" mentality that continues to destroy the will and fabric of this country.

Jeff
 
Our soldiers, sailors and airmen do it every day--and for a pittance in pay. The Coast Guard regularly risks all to save ignorant boaters who pay no attention to weather reports. Firemen risk all to save people who refuse to install smoke detectors.
Click to expand...
And all of those people are trained in the job, getting paid for doing it, adn have the government behind them supporting their actions, so I'd suggest there is little if any similarity.
Why should a banker risk money to lend you some when you haven't learned to budget, save and sacrifice in order to not need a loan?
Click to expand...
Because the banker plans on and expects to make a profit from his actions, and if he thinks the risk is not good you don't get the loan.
Why should a doctor perform a lung transplant or liver transplant for chronic smokers or drinkers who haven't learned or pay no attention?
Click to expand...
Because he gets paid quite well for doing that, and again will have the hospital (and usually an insurance company) to support him if there are problems.
I submit that you only perpetuate the "me first" mentality that continues to destroy the will and fabric of this country.
Click to expand...
I would suggest the "me first" mentality was what made the country great, not what is destroying it. "Me first" sent the pioneers out in the West. "Me first" revolted against the British government. And so on. It was this silly "nobody is responsible for taking care of themselves" stuff that has caused so much of the trouble, IMO.
 
Selfesh???

TexasSeaRay, Perhaps, but I carry a gun/s to protect me and mine.

The rest will depend on the terrain.

If children are involved, and I can move away from my wife of 56 years, I will likely become involved.

I did my 20, active participant in three wars--and your experience??
 
So basically, David, what you're advocating is "Leave it to someone else," right? That if it's not your job or you don't stand to gain something from it, then don't bother?

"Me first" isn't what either built or made this country. Self-determination, self-reliance, courage and teamwork is what made this country and made it great.

I grew up in farm and ranch country. We helped our neighbors and they helped us. We looked out for them and they looked out for us. Together, we all did well.

But if our neighbor's combine went down and we hadn't helped, he would've lost a lot of money not being able to harvest. When lightning struck our barn, our neighbors could've said "to hell with it--I'm not risky MY ass." After all, they weren't trained firefighters and there was absolutely zilch in it for them.

Fact is, the way we were raised and brought up, we never gave it a second thought that we'd help out. We had a lot of transient cowboys and workers come through every year. Some of them got sick, some ended up having financial problems, etc. Know what? We helped them out too, even though we didn't know them.

Maybe that's why I prefer country folks to most city folks.

KC135 said:
I did my 20, active participant in three wars--and your experience??
Click to expand...

Nine years active duty, with operations in Iran in '79 and '80, Central America (El Salvador, Nicaraugua, Panama), Grenada and then recalled for the Persian Gulf War. Federal narcotics agent for ten years before getting out and going into the private sector in a completely unrelated field.

If you've been married for 56 years, I'd guess you spent a little time driving around some of the early A model 135's with the water-cooled engines that redefined what "loud" is?

Jeff
 
David Armstrong is right.

If his school was in my area it would be on my must attend list.

I still say with mall shootings becoming common enough to discuss not only here but amongst the sheeple, this fat guy is keeping his large target out of malls unless absolutely necessary.

If the mall management was serious about security we wouldn't be having this discussion.

MY guess is that if the malls in your locale are properly guarded and ccw permit holders are welcome you ain't gonna have the problem. Here in the "hamburger alley" mall zone - take your business elsewhere.

If you feel an unquenchable desire to go forth and confront these evil doers, get the job title to do so. No matter which way you go, stay safe and avoid trouble.
 
Tom
so, now that its all said and done, what do you think you would do if you were there?
honestly, part of me says i would engage the shooter and to heck with personal safety. other part of me thinks self preservation would be the way to go
Click to expand...

Sometimes, engaging IS self preservation. I guess you have to be there to really know what you would do.
 
Fans

Were not on our birds, and yes, the water did cause a lot of smoke on takeoff Jeff. I did get a ride in a fan bird last year--quick and quiet.

J-57s--Loud?? Not near as loud as a B-36 on takeoff with 6 turning and four burning.:D;)

The problem with an active shooter has been well explored. If I cannot retreat with my charges, I will seek cover and wait, engaging if necessary.
 
4V50 Gary said:
Two concerns.

First, are you sure the person who you think is the perpetrator the actual perpetrator or is (s)he an off duty cop who is responding to the gunfire? Could (s)he also be a CCW holder like yourself?

Second, how do you ensure that you're not shot by the uniformed or off duty cops?

Better be sure of your target and then expected to be drawn upon by the police.
Click to expand...

Come on Gary. You are TFL staff and you don't think someone could make the distinction between a crazed gunman and the police? Last I check, police don't go around gunning down people indicriminately. If someone is approaching the shooter cautiously with a weapon drawn while moving people to safety, I'm sure most people would think you were an off duty cop.

I do not advocate simply blasting away in the bad guy's general direction. There is way too much collateral damage that could occur. If I did not have a clear shot or could not get close enough, I would try and get closer or wait for the bad guy to reload and rush him.

As for the legal ramifications, I am prepared to deal with them. Of course I would get any loved ones with me to safety and I would not go rushing in like a sheep to slaughter. You guys seem to make it all or nothing here. Like I mentioned earlier, approach cautiously and look for a good shot. There will be plenty of witnesses and most malls have good surveillance systems.

As for avoiding malls, that is a little hard since I own a business in one. Malls are great places to shop since you have multiple stores in one location. You have to consider the fact that crazed gunmen can attack any crowded areas. Unless you plan on living like a hermit, just live your life and be prepared to act should the need ever arise.
 
KC135 said:
Were not on our birds, and yes, the water did cause a lot of smoke on takeoff Jeff. I did get a ride in a fan bird last year--quick and quiet.

J-57s--Loud?? Not near as loud as a B-36 on takeoff with 6 turning and four burning.
Click to expand...

No doubt!

I did some time at Hill AFB back when they still had a Reserve unit of 105 Thuds. I believe that was the loudest single engine jet I've ever heard. The F16's screeched and tore at the air, but those Thuds literally thundered. On rare occasion, they'd do a four-ship formation takeoff rather than the normal two-ship. Holy moly, everything on base shook.

The problem with an active shooter has been well explored. If I cannot retreat with my charges, I will seek cover and wait, engaging if necessary.
Click to expand...

My father-in-law says the same thing. He was a Marine in the South Pacific during WWII. Told me if he was my age or younger, then he might look for ways to flank the Omaha mall shooter if possible or prudent. But at his age, said he'd push his wife into a corner and try to gather as many people to a safe cover spot, then stand gaurd and God rest the shooter's sorry soul if he came within firing range.

Jeff
 
I have no duty to protect anybody but my "self imposed" duty to self and family.

With that said, I will protect myself and my family, nothing more, nothing less when I'm off duty. It sounds selfish, but it's reality. Life isn't like the movies and Use Of Force Investigations SUCK, BTDT. If you are not a member of my family I am not willing to risk bancruptcy, prison, financial ruin or death for you.

If I can flee without firing a shot, that's what I will do. If my family or self is being threatened then I will respond appropriately, or I hope I do. I have "appropriately" responded in the past if that is any indication of future behavior. Just because I'm fleeing doesn't mean however that I'm not being a good witness and summoning the "On Duty" LEO's to the scene.

The only exception I will make to assisting another is in the case of an "IDENTIFIED" LEO. Other than that, you all are on your own, just like I expect to be. BTW, I'm an LEO. :)

Biker
 
Double Naught
In that case we would run both ways, Just like we did at the Chosin resivoir and Khe Sahn and the Canal. If there is just one of us we attack one way and when that target is defeated we go the other way LOL. If you look at history its not us Marines that are in trouble when we get surrounded its the ones who surround us that have the major problem. We like it as we dont have to go looking for them LOL. Marines have a proud battle history, i am proud to have been a part of it.
Semper Fi
 
Yes, but you are not a group of marines, but a single individual, which way do you run when the shooting is from two directions?

However, I am not surprised by the response. The recitation of mantra as an answer to a question is such that it often doesn't fit the question.
 
Well that depends on the situation. How often are you going to be in a crossfire as a civilian?? I am not worried about it. I am not really concerned about having to engage one person much less two. Yes a terrible tradgedy did happen at a mall but millions of others shopped in in peace. The odds are almost like winning the lottery to being in a shoot out.
 
So basically, David, what you're advocating is "Leave it to someone else," right? That if it's not your job or you don't stand to gain something from it, then don't bother?
Click to expand...
Actually David doesn't advocate much. He does suggest that you be aware of all the possible ramifications in order to make your best decision. So no, I don't say "don't bother", I do say "better know what can happen if you decide to bother."
"Me first" isn't what either built or made this country. Self-determination, self-reliance, courage and teamwork is what made this country and made it great.
Click to expand...
We'll disagree. But I doubt many of those pioneer types were thinking "Gee, I can't wait to have to work like a dog and fight the Indians and the weather so I can help out my fellow man!" I question how many of the 49ers were thinking "Wow, all this gold I'm panning will sure go a long way toward improving the status of this country inthe eyes of other nations!"
Fact is, the way we were raised and brought up, we never gave it a second thought that we'd help out.
Click to expand...
I don't mind helping out a bit. That is quite a bit different than ruining the rest of your life, or causing your kids to go without food, or losing the house, or going bankrupt, etc. I grew up on a farm also, and believe me there is quite a bit of difference between "let's help get the hay in before the rain hits" and "let's take a chance on getting our ass shot off."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top