Enfield No.4, MKI help?

T

tobnpr

New member
Local pawn shop has this for sale, and I'd like to add an Enfield to the C&R collection...and know absolutely zip about them.

Pic attached is all I know- and it's a lousy one from their website. Asking is $300- what do I need to look for to confirm it's (a) collectible and (b) worth something close to the asking price?
 

Attachments

  • enfield no. 4 mkI.jpg
    enfield no. 4 mkI.jpg
    131.4 KB · Views: 185
If you plan to shoot it, I would make sure you have a decent bore. $300 is the average price for one with a good bore for shooting. I have seen some with horrible bores.

First posters link would help as far as markings.
 
Unfortunately the pic is 99.9% useless except to tell its some kind of No4. The sling is wrong, that's a U.S sling the Enfield sling is a canvass strap.

What you need to know for better advice.
Bolt, receiver & magazine numbers present & matching or not?

What exactly is stamped on the receiver ring (band surrounding the wood), or electropencilled on the flat left hand side of the receiver?

Does it have "DP" stamped anywhere on it?

How many grooves in the bore?
Does it pass headspace (0.074") NOT SAAMI?
 
Wogpotter,
Thanks, that's the info I'm looking for (what I need to look for...)

I thought I'd read about headspace issues and neck-sizing brass only for these rifles somewhere (?)

I could buy a no-go, or perhaps some brass and add a couple of pieces of tape to the case to simulate a no-go.

Since it's a rimmed cartridge, are these potential issues related to worn lugs/raceways?
 
headspacing for enfields is often overblown. they generally have generous chambers which led some gunsmith at some point to write about the terrible headspacing which in reality wasn't there. go, no go gauges are easy enough to come by. that pic is pretty poor but it looks like somebody painted it black? if so that is not the correct finish.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to start a disagreement here, but so be it. Answering the questions in order.

I thought I'd read about headspace issues and neck-sizing brass only for these rifles somewhere (?)
Click to expand...
Yes you have, but they are (marginally at best) related only. Rimmed .303 cases headspace on the rim ONLY. Nothing in front of the rim has diddly/squat to do with head spacing, but it does have everything to do with neck sizing.

In addition to headspace there is a separate issue, namely "generous" chamber dimensions. Let me clarify. the neck & shoulder area of many No1 Mk3 rifles (SMLE's was intentionally made "loose (read sloppy)) so dirty ammunition could chamber in dirty chambers during trench warfare. Because of this "extra volume" Brass should be customized to the chamber of that rifle for longer case life.

The point being that neck sizing & headspace are two different issues & should be addressed separately.

To check headspace I suggest getting the "Coin Type" gauge from Okie Gauges. they are inexpensive, easy to use & utilize the correct dimensions (which are NOT SAAMI). Headspace is a bigger problem with a non-matching bolt, BTW. A matching one is probably fine.

I could buy a no-go
Click to expand...
Whatever the gauge is called it should measure an 0.074" gap. (Okie call it a FIELD) The British did not use the SAAMI GO, NO GO & Field specs they just had a min & a max.

Since it's a rimmed cartridge, are these potential issues related to worn lugs/raceways?
Click to expand...
Nope not a one, BUT....
The Savage made No4 Mk1* guns used a simplified bolt release & that CAN be a problem if it's chipped or worn. Check the edges of the cut in the bolt head & the actual rail it rides in. It might be, but isn't guaranteed to be a problem. If the bolt head ever jumps out, even once walk away its bad & effectively not usable. The edges of both the bolt head cut & the rail it rides in should be well defined & not chipped or rounded.

it looks like somebody painted it black? if so that is not the correct finish.
Click to expand...
It might be. Many Enfields were actually painted black. Many more were originally blued or (more likely from the '43 date) parkerized by Savage. Those might well have been re-painted, or painted by other owners such as South Africa where huge numbers of the Savage no4 mk1*'s were sent.

Does the rifle have a "birds footprint in a "U": anywhere on it? If it does it was once South African property.
 
$300 is about what they go for, nowadays, and a lot more go for $400 than $300.

Look for things like cracked stock wood, rusted bore, bent or broken sight ears, missing parts.

Look for matching numbers, and do not buy anything marked "DP", which means Drill Purpose. These were shot-out curtain rods that were relegated to cadet groups.

In general, though, the No. 4 was a well-designed and built rifle, with quality metallurgy, and is still in service today.
 
actually I was talking about the stock wog, I can't tell what the metal finish looks like from the pic, lighting is too poor.
 
SAAMI specs were reverse engineered, based on SAAMI practice from the pre-existing .303 design specs from the 1910 with the adoption of the Mk VII ball ammo.. Those specs were "sealed" (cast in stone, not to be altered) by MOD WOPS #9 but SAAMI had to have things done to their idea of specifications.

If you look at the differences they relate to chamber dimensions & headspace with SAAMI's H/S tighter than the original British WD ones. SAAMI uses GO, NO GO & FIELD for gauging, War Office Plans & Specifications does not they just have a Min & a Max.

Its quite possible to "fail" a SAAMI spec "Field Gauge" because they do not use the 0.074" spec. While actually being in spec for the original MOD WOPS spec.
 
Be wary of some of those which have 2-groove rifling: Savage, LB and a small fraction of those built in England.
I had a Longbranch with a very bright bore which made nasty 'keyhole' gashes at 100 yards.

This happened repeatedly using factory Prvi ammo.
The problem is that most modern ammo has these BT bullets, but even with a nice bore/rifling, possibly a worn throat or muzzle seem to cause these really bad results.

The old Russian .311 bullets sometimes found for reloading have straight sides.
 
Thanks guys. Going to get up there this week, give it a look and take some pics and post them back here if I have any more questions.
 
Around $300 is fair, but there are deals to be had with some digging.

Maybe this page will help you talk them down a bit? Lee Enfield No. 4 Sales Data.

Regarding the 2-groove rifling, I own a Long Branch No. 4 with a 2-groove barrel and it's among my best shooters. It was a good shooter with surplus ammo, but now that I'm reloading it it simply amazing and I feel will shoot better than my eyes.
 
The Sling

There were three or more slings in use militarily. Some were Brit and some American. The Brit sling was a very thick and robust strap with high beaded edges that gripped a brass buckle comprised of hook like claws that held to the beaded edges of the thick strap. The Brit sling was normally khaki colored but came in OD Green, white, and dark blue. There was a leather sling that was Brit intended for earlier Enfield's but sometimes issued for the Mark 4. The Americans built many of the buckle free Kerr Slings for many different arms to include many Enfield variants and even the Thompson submachine Gun. Some Kerr slings were tailored exactly for the Mark 4 and original Kerr slings can be pricey.

I have a Mark 4 and it is in original condition and I hunt with it and bench shoot it. It is a very rugged and versatile rifle and .303 will drop a Moose or a rabbit. Buy the Rifle. Buy some dies. Or buy a small Lee hand loader kit. You will be just fine with this rifle and never cut it or modify it. Never hot load your ammo as the round has enough power in normal loadings for hunting nor shooting. Clean and oil it often and give it to your Grandson to cherish when you grow old. That is what Enfield Rifles are truly for.
 
Here's mine

I bought a Mk 4 No 1 a couple of years ago for about $220, so if everything is ok - prob not a bad price (not great though).

Here mine for comparison:

enfield303closeup.jpg


enfield303overview.jpg


Not the prettiest gun but everything works just fine and it shoots - very well!

Oh yea - You'll need one of these too:

pmx4.jpg
 
Well, it's been a few months...

tobnpr, did you get that Enfield?
Click to expand...

and I finally found myself over in that part of town...it was still there.
All serial numbers match (those that I could find). Forgot to take a pic of the business end of the rifle- but the crown and rifling were pristine- bore shined like a mirror.

Obviously, something's been scrubbed off the top wall of the left side of the receiver, and the sling certainly isn't original.

Since I know absolutely nothing about the Enfields- I'll let these pics, and you resident experts, edumacate me...:)











.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top