Gunplummer
New member
jhedgesville
By the way, would that be Hedgesville W.V.? I hunt down around that way.
By the way, would that be Hedgesville W.V.? I hunt down around that way.
Enfield .303 Questions
- Thread starter jhedgesville
- Start date
Let me try this again. I don't say receiver spring is drivel, it exists & is real.
What I did say is that it is nowhere enough stretch brass to failure point, or accelerate case failures so I say that action spring stretching brass to a point of accelerated failure is drivel. That was why I was asking for an actual measurement of "spring" why? Because I'll bet you that it is less than variance between the rim thicknesses between manufacturers. Enfields are famous for stretching brass too I acknowledge that as well, but it is caused by sloppy brass, & oversize chambers, not some minute thou of give in an action.
My point is that a minute amount of action stretch/compression or whatever is minimal & when compared to other things, such as oversize chambers has virtually no effect on brass life that is not buried completely under other things.
Example:
Case stretch caused by oversize chambers:
Cases fired in a correctly-sized chamber.
Case stretch to failure point, caused by a springy action? I don't think so, both cases were fired in the same, springy Lee-Enfield action.
What I did say is that it is nowhere enough stretch brass to failure point, or accelerate case failures so I say that action spring stretching brass to a point of accelerated failure is drivel. That was why I was asking for an actual measurement of "spring" why? Because I'll bet you that it is less than variance between the rim thicknesses between manufacturers. Enfields are famous for stretching brass too I acknowledge that as well, but it is caused by sloppy brass, & oversize chambers, not some minute thou of give in an action.
My point is that a minute amount of action stretch/compression or whatever is minimal & when compared to other things, such as oversize chambers has virtually no effect on brass life that is not buried completely under other things.
Example:
Case stretch caused by oversize chambers:
Cases fired in a correctly-sized chamber.
Case stretch to failure point, caused by a springy action? I don't think so, both cases were fired in the same, springy Lee-Enfield action.
Gunplummer
New member
What makes you think that you have an over size chamber? I have made a few rimmed reamers in my time and those head space gauges don't tell you if the chamber is oversize. Let me try this again. You can load a rear locking hi-power rifle hot enough to stretch the brass to the point that you can not re-size it (Well, maybe with a pipe on the press handle). I would call that brass failure if it is no longer usable.
I dont see how a case can get streatched to the point that you can not resize it unless you are using a old lyman hand held press. Wogspoters picture of the .303 cases looks pretty typical to me from what I have seen of over sized chambers in Lees. They seem to run from just over sized to totaly wreck brass over sized.
Most .303s tend to be somthing requires a person to have some good basic knowlege of headspacing and proper die adjustment to avoid case falures. If you want to see somthing really intersesting on over sized .303 chambers check out the old martinie metfords.
Most .303s tend to be somthing requires a person to have some good basic knowlege of headspacing and proper die adjustment to avoid case falures. If you want to see somthing really intersesting on over sized .303 chambers check out the old martinie metfords.
madcratebuilder
New member
All LE's have oversize chambers, some more than others. If you are stretching your brass to be unusable check your headspace. LE receivers are flexy but not that flexy.
Cast your chamber.
Cast your chamber.
Gunplummer
New member
I don't see where you get your criteria for an "Over sized chamber". What you are suffering from is excessive head space. I don't know what the British Army uses for chamber specs but it is not even close to SAAMI specs. Those rifles were so sloppy that in theory you could advance the bolt head a turn to take up the excessive head space. Add that to the "Spring" factor and you could be in trouble. Almost all rimmed cartridges have the chamber reamer made with the rim integral with the body. If you have an "Oversize" chamber, chances are it is in MIL spec. They did not plan on reloading. I don't care what anybody says, it is a low pressure gun and the lock up and "Spring" has a lot to do with that.
What makes you think that you have an over size chamber?
Nothing at all, I don't have an over sized chamber, but some people do. look at the pictures I posted. The black lines with arrows indicate case stretch caused by an over-sized chamber.
I have made a few rimmed reamers in my time and those head space gauges don't tell you if the chamber is oversize.
Of course they don't, .303 British headspaces on the rim only. I never said the H/S gauge indicated anything other than headspace. look at the green lines those are the position to measure head space, the gauges to the right of the cases don't even extend to the shoulder!
You can load a rear locking hi-power rifle hot enough to stretch the brass to the point that you can not re-size it (Well, maybe with a pipe on the press handle).
Actually you can reload any action too hot & damage brass. I doesn't matter where the locking lugs are. Its a function of over-expanded brass caused by incompetent hand-loading, not locking lug position.
I don't see where you get your criteria for an "Over sized chamber".
From the movement indicated in the pictures posted above. That's why I posted pictures so you could see the shoulder being blown out & forward in the pictures with the red background. The other set shows a normal chamber & the amount of movement of the shoulder.
What you are suffering from is excessive head space.
No sir I am not. I have measured my headspace & it is 0.066 (1 thou under, spec is 0.067). Look at the set of cases with the ruler in it, there is no problem with those cases, none at all.
Headspace is the rim only on the .303 case! It has absolutely zero effect on anything other than the rim fitting between the bolt face & the breech rear, nothing at all. That is why the case over expansion is caused by an over dimension chamber, not head space issues.
I don't know what the British Army uses for chamber specs but it is not even close to SAAMI specs.
Perhaps if you'd inform yourself you wouldn't be so confused!
.303 Enfield Gauges (Mil spec)
Headspace is measured in different ways on different calibers. For a rimmed cartridge such as the .303 British Enfield, headspace is the distance between the bolt face and the face of the chamber where the loaded cartridge rests
GO = 0.064
NO-GO = 0.067"
FIELD = 0.074".
Lee-Enfields were made to this spec for literally decades, then SAAMI came up with a different one with a much different set of dimensions, that's where the problem started. These rifles were never designed to have the ammunition reloaded either, no military rifle was.
Nothing at all, I don't have an over sized chamber, but some people do. look at the pictures I posted. The black lines with arrows indicate case stretch caused by an over-sized chamber.
I have made a few rimmed reamers in my time and those head space gauges don't tell you if the chamber is oversize.
Of course they don't, .303 British headspaces on the rim only. I never said the H/S gauge indicated anything other than headspace. look at the green lines those are the position to measure head space, the gauges to the right of the cases don't even extend to the shoulder!
You can load a rear locking hi-power rifle hot enough to stretch the brass to the point that you can not re-size it (Well, maybe with a pipe on the press handle).
Actually you can reload any action too hot & damage brass. I doesn't matter where the locking lugs are. Its a function of over-expanded brass caused by incompetent hand-loading, not locking lug position.
I don't see where you get your criteria for an "Over sized chamber".
From the movement indicated in the pictures posted above. That's why I posted pictures so you could see the shoulder being blown out & forward in the pictures with the red background. The other set shows a normal chamber & the amount of movement of the shoulder.
What you are suffering from is excessive head space.
No sir I am not. I have measured my headspace & it is 0.066 (1 thou under, spec is 0.067). Look at the set of cases with the ruler in it, there is no problem with those cases, none at all.
Headspace is the rim only on the .303 case! It has absolutely zero effect on anything other than the rim fitting between the bolt face & the breech rear, nothing at all. That is why the case over expansion is caused by an over dimension chamber, not head space issues.
I don't know what the British Army uses for chamber specs but it is not even close to SAAMI specs.
Perhaps if you'd inform yourself you wouldn't be so confused!
.303 Enfield Gauges (Mil spec)
Headspace is measured in different ways on different calibers. For a rimmed cartridge such as the .303 British Enfield, headspace is the distance between the bolt face and the face of the chamber where the loaded cartridge rests
GO = 0.064
NO-GO = 0.067"
FIELD = 0.074".
Lee-Enfields were made to this spec for literally decades, then SAAMI came up with a different one with a much different set of dimensions, that's where the problem started. These rifles were never designed to have the ammunition reloaded either, no military rifle was.
Last edited:
Gunplummer
New member
I don't think the chamber is out of spec. The British were in a war and opened up the tolerance. The only way to tell if it is an oversize chamber is to take a casting of the chamber and check it against British Army chamber drawings. There must be hundreds of thousands of over size chambers out there if everybody eyeballs their chamber dimensions. On a rimmed case the head space gauge will not tell you if it is an oversize chamber, and neither will setting two cases next to each other. There is a call out on the shoulder position when making a reamer. You can't just position it where your favorite brass fits tight or you will have a "custom" rifle.
jhedgesville
Inactive
Yes it is.
And thanks everyone for all the info. I was watching the Military Channel earlier today and they had the top 10 combat rifles of all times and the Lee Enfield was #3 only beat by the M16 and the AK-47
madcratebuilder
New member
Gunplummer said:
SAAMi spec does not apply to the No4 lee Enfield.
Head space is controlled be uses the correct bolt head. Bolt heads are numbered 0, 1 ,2 and 3. A few have reported a Number 4 bolt head but I have never seen one.
The No4 Enfield is a battle rifle with a chamber designed to operate on a battle field, dirt and all.
Gunplummer
New member
Oversize is out of spec. Admit you don't know what you are talking about. I worked on guns in the Military and was in the Military three times. Almost no military round uses SAAMI specs. Some don't even uses the same points on the chamber to call the dimensions from. Try and think this out. You are using SAAMI spec brass in a military chamber. The brass is under size and the chamber is in spec.
As you've descended to insults this will be my last post in this thread. However I will, before leaving correct your insults.
You did not know the headspace till I informed you of it.
When the spec was expanded the oversize chambers were within the new spec. You didn't know that.
You still don't understand that a headspace total range of 0.010" (From GO at 0.064 to FIELD at 0.074) is nowhere near where the expansion occurs.
You started by stating the receiver expansion caused brass fatigue, when questioned you stated steel compression caused brass fatigue. Which is it & how much expanding compression is there in the length from a Enfield bolt to the breech face?
You quoted overloads in a different brand as being the cause of case stretch. I guess over loading is not responsible for tight brass?
You don't comprehend that rimmed case headspace in the .303" British is JUST the rim. Those are the
You lack understanding that Military specs in the U.K. & Commonwealth has absolutely zero to do with SAAMI, an American civilian organization that has specs for U.S. civilian ammunition. That's why British Mil-Spec is the correct reference.
You state:
How do you know what brass I am using? I've never told you.
For the record it is MilSpec FMJ Mk7 service ammunition that IS in spec.
You did not know the headspace till I informed you of it.
When the spec was expanded the oversize chambers were within the new spec. You didn't know that.
You still don't understand that a headspace total range of 0.010" (From GO at 0.064 to FIELD at 0.074) is nowhere near where the expansion occurs.
You started by stating the receiver expansion caused brass fatigue, when questioned you stated steel compression caused brass fatigue. Which is it & how much expanding compression is there in the length from a Enfield bolt to the breech face?
You quoted overloads in a different brand as being the cause of case stretch. I guess over loading is not responsible for tight brass?
You don't comprehend that rimmed case headspace in the .303" British is JUST the rim. Those are the
You lack understanding that Military specs in the U.K. & Commonwealth has absolutely zero to do with SAAMI, an American civilian organization that has specs for U.S. civilian ammunition. That's why British Mil-Spec is the correct reference.
You state:
How do you know what brass I am using? I've never told you.
For the record it is MilSpec FMJ Mk7 service ammunition that IS in spec.
madcratebuilder
New member
Gunplummer said:
Is that really called for?
Gunplummer
New member
It really was called for. "Perhaps if you informed yourself you would not be so confused". The last post has my posts and other posts mixed together. I never said anything about metal compression. Just like I used to tell people like you to get out of the shop, enough of this.
I own and shoot a few different Enfields, I have had a few case head separations. I have had enough of them that I carry a broken case extractor whenever I take one out to shoot and used it two times in one day. the first time I had a case head separation I did not even know it happened and only discovered it because the next round would not go into the chamber. Enfields were designed with a couple of vent holes just for the purpose of venting the gasses from a case head separation to the sides away form the shooter and its works very well. Case head separations are not that big of a deal.
Benson McCoy
Inactive
Hi everyone, I'm new here but have been an Enfield collector for many years.
Headspace with a rimmed cartridge is purely the distance between the back face of the barrel and the bolthead. The dimensions of the chamber have no bearing whatsoever on this measurement.
Headspace with a rimless cartridge is absolutely governed by the chamber dimensions because there is no rim to hold the cartridge in place. A long chamber will result in excessive headspace, and vice versa.
I reload and neck resize individually for all my old girls. I only use a British mil-spec field gauge of .074" which is the absolute safe maximum. Once the cases have been fire formed, they won't stretch any further, so the no-go gauge isn't so important if you match the cases to the individual rifles.
I use PPI cases which are European and made to military sizes rather than to SAAMI spec. Military spec cases have thicker rims than SAAMI ones, and by definition are dimensionally the same as the cases the rifle was originally designed to be used with.
Headspace with a rimmed cartridge is purely the distance between the back face of the barrel and the bolthead. The dimensions of the chamber have no bearing whatsoever on this measurement.
Headspace with a rimless cartridge is absolutely governed by the chamber dimensions because there is no rim to hold the cartridge in place. A long chamber will result in excessive headspace, and vice versa.
I reload and neck resize individually for all my old girls. I only use a British mil-spec field gauge of .074" which is the absolute safe maximum. Once the cases have been fire formed, they won't stretch any further, so the no-go gauge isn't so important if you match the cases to the individual rifles.
I use PPI cases which are European and made to military sizes rather than to SAAMI spec. Military spec cases have thicker rims than SAAMI ones, and by definition are dimensionally the same as the cases the rifle was originally designed to be used with.
Gunplummer
New member
Thank you Mr. McCoy.