Ending Terrorism

C

chorlton

New member
As some of you will know, the IRA's paramilitary campaign has ended as of today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4720863.stm
I don't know how much you know about the conflict (I do know that US businesses and individuals were kind enough to provide financial support to these terrorists, but I will try to stay away from that can of worms), but the fact is that 30 years of shootings and bombings and assassinations by all parties (heard of the FRU for example?) were brought to an end by negotiations. I'm not suggesting here that we should negotiate with terrorists (the early release of convicted murderers is wholly unacceptable under any circumstances), but there are surely lessons to be learned here, arent there?
 
Oh; so this means that the British army can be withdrawn from the North now - and there will be no more martial or semi-martial law in Northern Ireland now?
 
Um, yes. Thats the whole point. British troops have been withdrawing for at least the last 5 years. Were you trying to make a point or just asking a question?
 
I'd say the lesson learned is that the IRA got real nervous after the London bombings. They had effectively been tolerated for years since they didn't do much beyond threaten further conflicts. After the London attacks, they realized that the British would no longer tolerate an easily identified and targetable terrorist group on their soil.
 
It is true to say that recent events had an undeniable effect on speeding up the peace process, although this news was coming way before the London bombings. However, the thought of peace only came around AFTER covert and open warfare had achieved nothing. In this particular case, it was a desire for peace changed things. 30 years of violence didnt work.
 
read the Al Queda handbook....

how do you negotiate with folks whose goal is the destruction of Western Civilization and a fundamentalist Islamic Superstate?

The IRA wanted to return N. Ireland to be part of Ireland. realized it isnt going to happen and hopefully got some sense to become part of the solution instead of the problem. That is negotiable.

You are never going to stop terrorism.......

The solution to terrorism requires more than just military force. It needs to have an economic and social apsect to it. an anology to military force against terrorism is mowing your lawn. You can mow over the weeds with the grass and the lawn looks nice for a little while then the weeds grow back. weeds have to be killed at the root just a terrorism does.
 
It's a very tough question, and I don't know the answer. How do you defeat an empire of the mind? The only way I can think of is with a better idea, but the minds "in the empire" must be receptive to that new idea, first. Otherwise, how do you defeat the terrorists without becoming exactly the type of people they are?
 
It is true to say that recent events had an undeniable effect on speeding up the peace process, although this news was coming way before the London bombings. However, the thought of peace only came around AFTER covert and open warfare had achieved nothing. In this particular case, it was a desire for peace changed things. 30 years of violence didnt work.
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The IRA was adamant about not disarming. They had broken agreements on that matter in the past. After the bombings, they've disarmed and effectively renounced the use of violence, something they'd held out as an alternative means of conflict resolution even during the peace process.

By the way, 30 years of violence achieved its main goal for the IRA: it made them important. People who otherwise had menial lives had positions of respect among their supporters and colleagues. Once that was gone, they couldn't justify or support their "night jobs" and have to return to their day jobs. Revolutionary leader one day, spitoon cleaner the next.

That's how you beat terrorists. You eliminate their lines of support, you take away the attention they receive, and you make the people whose support and approval they crave hate them.
 
Very good points, buzz_knox, especially your ideas in the last paragraph, and definitely worth a try. I'm concerned they may be a little less effective when the support and attention they crave comes from their conception of a deity who they believe wants them to do what they are doing...but still definitely worth a try.
 
I'm concerned they may be a little less effective when the support and attention they crave comes from their conception of a deity who they believe wants them to do what they are doing...but still definitely worth a try.
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You'll never stop terrorism because there will always be some crazy who hears voices, etc. But you will cut down on the terrorism caused by old evil men telling young impressionable boys that the god of their choice will love them more if they kill innocent women and children. When the communities start tossing the old men out on their ear (or killing them) for such statements, things will improve.
 
The solution to terrorism requires more than just military force. It needs to have an economic and social apsect to it. an anology to military force against terrorism is mowing your lawn. You can mow over the weeds with the grass and the lawn looks nice for a little while then the weeds grow back. weeds have to be killed at the root just a terrorism does.
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I agree - peace can only be achieved by a multitude of methods, including working on the causes. Anyone who supports any kind of terrorism in any way has blood on their hands.
 
You'll never stop terrorism because there will always be some crazy who hears voices, etc. But you will cut down on the terrorism caused by old evil men telling young impressionable boys that the god of their choice will love them more if they kill innocent women and children. When the communities start tossing the old men out on their ear (or killing them) for such statements, things will improve.
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That is about the size of it.

I wonder what would happen if the Uck and the US went all-out on releif efforts in the middle east? Just said "Okay, that's it. We're going to get a blanket and three hot meals a day to every poor sod in $COUNTRY within two weeks. We've got the finest engineers on the planet - lets get the electricity and water back on as fast as we can, contract negotiations bedamned. Let's put the infrastructure of these places on their feet, rather than letting them drag along on their knees.

Lets see how many hate-spreaders keep their bile going when the guy with the red, white and blue shoulder-patch (be it crosses or stars and bars) are there doiling out food and medical support, and getting electricity and water to people.

That I would dearly love to see.
 
That is about the size of it.

I wonder what would happen if the Uck and the US went all-out on releif efforts in the middle east? Just said "Okay, that's it. We're going to get a blanket and three hot meals a day to every poor sod in $COUNTRY within two weeks. We've got the finest engineers on the planet - lets get the electricity and water back on as fast as we can, contract negotiations bedamned. Let's put the infrastructure of these places on their feet, rather than letting them drag along on their knees.

Lets see how many hate-spreaders keep their bile going when the guy with the red, white and blue shoulder-patch (be it crosses or stars and bars) are there doiling out food and medical support, and getting electricity and water to people.

That I would dearly love to see.
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Most of the stuff would be sold on the black market by some corrupt officials. the money would also vanish into mysterious black holes. I wonder what the total of unnacounted for funds in Iraq is now?
 
Most of the stuff would be sold on the black market by some corrupt officials. the money would also vanish into mysterious black holes. I wonder what the total of unnacounted for funds in Iraq is now?
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Bit of a defeatest attitude! How're you gonna end war 'n' stuff with that gloomy-gus outlook? This is a gun board! There are corrupt officials! Gun were made for corrupt officals! :D
 
Um, yes. Thats the whole point. British troops have been withdrawing for at least the last 5 years. Were you trying to make a point or just asking a question?
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Um, perhaps both. After so many decades during which the IRA became entrenched in arms smuggling, drug smuggling, extortion, murder and other illicit forms of "income" - I doubt that those involved in all this are going to go away just because Gerry Adams says so.

Let's suffice to say that I am very sceptical.
 
The DUP certainly share your opinion. I dislike the IRA, and i think its obscene that former active members are now political figureheads. However, I hope that everyone will look at it with guarded optimism. I also hope that while the OP's are being dismantled, a covert presence remains for a while...
 
Here's why talking with these folks will never work. Neither will "good deeds" and "charity":

You will not remove and cannot remove terrorism. It's a way of life and a fact that must be understood for the rest of time.

Why can't you remove these facts, because in order to remove terrorism you would have to remove the religion of Islam. To remove the religion would be to remove the 1st amendment. Something, no matter how much you wish for terrorism to go away, shouldn't be held as an option (removal of the 1st amendment). This goes right along with free speech also.

Their Book does state that all Jews and Christians must be removed from the land. Some interpret this differently then others, depending on what context they are using and interpreting. Some say this means to convert the "un-believers" while some say that it means to kill all "un-believers". It's the ones that say it means to kill them that are the problem.

And, like it or not, they will continue to be out there until God comes and tells us who is right, and who is wrong. I believe, just to be clear, that Jesus is the right way and will continue to believe while they believe that their way is the right way, and will continue to believe.

The only way to keep them in check is to remove their funding and their ability but we all know that it can't be done. That there will always be someone out there with the cash and the leadership skills to keep this war going.

Let's bring this closer to home with our issue, gun rights vs. gun control. Gun control organizations like the brady bunch and vpc will always be there because rich people, like soros and others, will continue to feed them money. Now, even if soros, moore, hollyweird people ceased to be rich tomorrow, there will be someone out there that is ready to feed them the cash.

And then you have the human resources. These resources will always be out there. As the terrorist can get uneducated, educated, and people out there that will take up the cause and to strap the "bomb" to themselves, the anti-gun organizations have the same resources. And will always have these resources.

So therefore, this is the "war" (both) in a nutshell. It will never be won by any parties, not unless we trash the entire Constitution and the Bill of Rights. So, no matter how much we wish for this to "go away", it never will (both "wars", terrorist and gun rights).

Wayne
 
The Irish question dates back centuries. People were discussing virtually this same issue before WW1 and again in the neutrality decision in WW2. There were terrible atrocities allowed on each side. Geurilla warfare is nothing new. Civil war is not new. Americans were discussing these same issues in 1863. The concern is simple. There must be something conceded and something greater gained. The IFS or Eire? The CSA or the USA? To aid Britain and France or anger the Austro-Hungarian Empire? To aid Britain or remain isolationist? The facts are these, the western intervention is not welcomed or respected in the east. The western desire to bring electricity, digital TV, rail transportation, western philosophy and religion is an affront and brings nothing to the east that is needed or accepted. The western desire to civilize the savages is offensive and against Islamic law, tenets and the printed word. The western ways and mores are not the same as the east. What the relief efforts offer is offensive to cultures based on worth, murder and state supported Suttee. No, we cannot just all get along.
 
Their Book does state that all Jews and Christians must be removed from the land.
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Funny, that. I did a digital re-creation of Sultan Baybar's Qur'An for the British Library a couple of years back. It was sufficiently close to 2001 that I was full of semi-nauseous curiosity about said tome, and the curator of the BL was good enough to sit there with me translating bits of it that I was curious about.

When I asked about the vary statement you're referring to, he looked very grim and said "I'm afraid you've been misled. There is no such statement in the Qur'An as originally written."

He went on to explain to me that as the book was copied and re-copied over the years, the various factions and groups would alter parts of the content to suit their own agendas.

Interestingly, he went on to point out that in the Bible originally, long before the King James adaptation, there was a statement that (roughly) said "You shall not suffer a poisoner to live".

Due to fears at that in that day and age, the passage was changed to conveniently state:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
 
Trying to compare the Northern Ireland debacle to the Middle Eastern "condition" is like comparing the Odessa Permian Panthers to the New England Patriots.

You want to cause Armageddon? Destroy Mecca.

I work with a ton of good people at my job, and a very large portion of them are Muslim. They are as outraged and embarrassed by these animals as anyone else. But if you were to desecrate Mecca in any way physicially, you would have 'adversaries within' in every nation in the world. It would be like nuking Jerusalem, which would probably happen soon after the razing of Mecca.

No, there are no easy answers here. Like someone spoke of earlier, the evil old men telling lies to gullible teenagers. It is not going to stop. They will stop only when the entire world is Muslim; their kind of Muslim... :barf:

Ain't gonna happen... :mad:
 
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