Hey buck460XVR, where do you live? I don't buy the govt. conspiracy bit either but I tend to listen to the people who live there and deal with things like this on a daily basis. If they say the elk population is way down it probably is. The wolves don't have to kill them all but the elk will find safer places to live, thus the numbers in a given area will decline IMO.
End of Elk Hunting in the Big Horns Mtns, Wyoming
- Thread starter kraigwy
- Start date
Pond James Pond
New member
I disagree: their methods provided what they needed to live and they typically did not waste a single part of any material, animal, mineral or plant that they gathered. That sounds like efficiency of the highest order. The only difference is that the settlers from east over the water brought the "market" into the equation. That is when things went downhill.
It is not control. It is tampering. It only seemed like control when human numbers were too small to make a perceptible difference to the environment. That is no longer the case, and still we feel qualified to tamper....
Again, I think balance is a misnomer. I don't think there isn't anywhere that industrialised man is in balance with his environment.
Is maintaining that trend advisable?
Is wiping out a species anywhere, pragmatically or ethically advisable just because it suits us?
Those are questions we can't really afford to ignore when populations will reach 9 billion within a couple of decades or so, IMHO.
Folks, move up to northern Idaho or Monatana, WY and actually live with these creatures and take the risks that we do just being in the woods with these alien creatures that don't belong here at all. Wrong subspecies. The Idaho wolf, a subspecies of gray wolf had very different behavior than the Mackenzie Valley gray wolf, was not as large and didn't threaten people or livestock.
Man does a reach a balance with the ecosystem or the ecosystem will die and man shortly thereafter. Subsistance hunting is a tradition in America that is now greatly jeopardized by the Federal program of wolf "reintroduction." Now the entire ecosystem is jeopardized by not only the wolf, but the invasive parasite, Echococcus that is infected bears, mountain lions, deer, elk and anthing that comes in contact with the wolf scat. 62% of Idaho wolves tested were positive for this parasite known prior to "reintroduction." I would readily have to state that if you were to debate this same subject in Finland for instance, they would be laughing at the rediculous ignorance of the dangers of the wolf on direct public health displayed on this thread.
Even the Bible talks about driving the wild beasts out of the areas where man will habitate to protect the people in that area. Come on folks, if you think you can live with this wild beast, just come up to Idaho and try it for a while. After they have eaten a couple of your favorite pets, threatened you and your children and then you get ill with Hydatid cysts growing in your livers and brains, maybe then you will simply say, I should have listened to you.
Man does a reach a balance with the ecosystem or the ecosystem will die and man shortly thereafter. Subsistance hunting is a tradition in America that is now greatly jeopardized by the Federal program of wolf "reintroduction." Now the entire ecosystem is jeopardized by not only the wolf, but the invasive parasite, Echococcus that is infected bears, mountain lions, deer, elk and anthing that comes in contact with the wolf scat. 62% of Idaho wolves tested were positive for this parasite known prior to "reintroduction." I would readily have to state that if you were to debate this same subject in Finland for instance, they would be laughing at the rediculous ignorance of the dangers of the wolf on direct public health displayed on this thread.
Even the Bible talks about driving the wild beasts out of the areas where man will habitate to protect the people in that area. Come on folks, if you think you can live with this wild beast, just come up to Idaho and try it for a while. After they have eaten a couple of your favorite pets, threatened you and your children and then you get ill with Hydatid cysts growing in your livers and brains, maybe then you will simply say, I should have listened to you.
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jimmythegeek
New member
That's just silly.
All the western states spent millions of dollars - back when that was real money - eradicating the gray wolf by around 1930. They didn't do it because they were shamed by that subspecies' elegant table manners.
This is not an alien, invasive species. You may not desire it, but that's another thing.
All the western states spent millions of dollars - back when that was real money - eradicating the gray wolf by around 1930. They didn't do it because they were shamed by that subspecies' elegant table manners.
This is not an alien, invasive species. You may not desire it, but that's another thing.
Do your homework my friend and you will find that yes, the Mackenzie Valley wolf is an alien invasive subspecies that was not in Northern Idaho previously.
http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2011...ain-wolves-v-introduced-canadian-gray-wolves/
One of my friends up in Idaho is a life long resident south of Lake Coeur d'Alene near St. Marie's and grew up on a ranch that he later took over from his father. He recalls very distinctly the native Idaho wolf that didn't bother him or his livestock. They mainly ate field mice according to this man who has spent his entire life living and working in the Idaho woods. Please understand that Great Danes are the same species as Chiwawas. Essentially, you have a wolf that is larger than many Great Danes with the temperament of a Chiwawa that will eat the ankles off of anyone that comes near. Just as Great Danes are distinctively different than a chiwawa, so likewise the Mackenzie Valley gray wolf and the Rocky mountain gray wolf.
Don't worry, a few more years and you will be able to enjoy them too right near Seattle which is surrounded by woods perfect for these creatures. Only a short matter of time before you can enjoy them as well.
Here is an operation removing an Echinococcal cyst from the liver. Not for faint of heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNnswE6hEw&feature=related
Here is what happens if one of these liver cysts ruptures prior to surgical removal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUu91Ja1spk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCfUrKWar9w&feature=related
Placing these creatures into a high population area compared to the Candian Tundra places the Echinococcal cyst into this population which now includes me and my family. All as a great present from the Feds that no one up here wanted period.
Here is the surgical removal of hydatid cyst from a kidney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPJDxKyunjU&feature=related
Here is the removal of hydatid cyst from the lungs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNK_yzY0PA
Please explain why the US Federal Government would introduce a serious public health risk into populated areas in the lower 48?
Echinococcal Granulosa life cycle: (Please note, 62% of surveyed wolves in Idaho were infected)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Echinococcus_Life_Cycle.png
Here is the Army manual report on Hydatidosis, something the Feds know all about:
http://www.chppmeur.healthcare.hqus...hppmeur/factsheets/DES-FS002 Fox Tapeworm.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNnswE6hEw&feature=related
Here is what happens if one of these liver cysts ruptures prior to surgical removal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUu91Ja1spk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCfUrKWar9w&feature=related
Placing these creatures into a high population area compared to the Candian Tundra places the Echinococcal cyst into this population which now includes me and my family. All as a great present from the Feds that no one up here wanted period.
Here is the surgical removal of hydatid cyst from a kidney:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPJDxKyunjU&feature=related
Here is the removal of hydatid cyst from the lungs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNK_yzY0PA
Please explain why the US Federal Government would introduce a serious public health risk into populated areas in the lower 48?
Echinococcal Granulosa life cycle: (Please note, 62% of surveyed wolves in Idaho were infected)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Echinococcus_Life_Cycle.png
Here is the Army manual report on Hydatidosis, something the Feds know all about:
http://www.chppmeur.healthcare.hqus...hppmeur/factsheets/DES-FS002 Fox Tapeworm.pdf
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Pond James Pond
New member
I get the fact that you don't like the wolves and you've gathered reasons to support that view. However, there are a few points that don't add up for me.
I disagree. I think the places where modern, industrialised man exists and how he has affected his environs are not good examples of man in balance with his environment. That has been the case since the industrial revolution.
If that weren't the case, the red wolf that people mention would still be around also.
This reintroduced species, whether originally native or not, had to come from somewhereand this parasite with it, prior to ending up in Wyoming.
Therefore, if this parasite is so virulent, then the place it came from must be utterly devastated, with most mammals affected.
Do we know this to be the case?
(I seem to recall someone writing that they came from Canada)
I live across the water from Finland. And by land only around the Bay of Helsinki, and I have to say we've have not heard anything about such a parasite.
Not saying it is not there, just that it is not something that has been publicised. One would expect it would be if it is so dangerous to humans and other mammals. And people here spend a lot of time in the forest, weather permitting.
Health authorities are, however, very focused on Tick-borne encepahlitis, as I mentioned before.
Whilst each is entitled to their own spiritual views, I don't really see biblical writings as relevant to human/ecosystem interaction in the modern world.
No offence, but I personally don't see that as a viable arguement for acting against any animal species.
The part I have diffculty understanding in all of this is that "eradication" is the only answer being considered: the only viable option as some would see it.
No one is even entertaining the possibility that any other possible solutions exist. I don't profess to know what these other options may be, but I bet there are some.
I disagree. I think the places where modern, industrialised man exists and how he has affected his environs are not good examples of man in balance with his environment. That has been the case since the industrial revolution.
If that weren't the case, the red wolf that people mention would still be around also.
This reintroduced species, whether originally native or not, had to come from somewhereand this parasite with it, prior to ending up in Wyoming.
Therefore, if this parasite is so virulent, then the place it came from must be utterly devastated, with most mammals affected.
Do we know this to be the case?
(I seem to recall someone writing that they came from Canada)
I live across the water from Finland. And by land only around the Bay of Helsinki, and I have to say we've have not heard anything about such a parasite.
Not saying it is not there, just that it is not something that has been publicised. One would expect it would be if it is so dangerous to humans and other mammals. And people here spend a lot of time in the forest, weather permitting.
Health authorities are, however, very focused on Tick-borne encepahlitis, as I mentioned before.
Whilst each is entitled to their own spiritual views, I don't really see biblical writings as relevant to human/ecosystem interaction in the modern world.
No offence, but I personally don't see that as a viable arguement for acting against any animal species.
The part I have diffculty understanding in all of this is that "eradication" is the only answer being considered: the only viable option as some would see it.
No one is even entertaining the possibility that any other possible solutions exist. I don't profess to know what these other options may be, but I bet there are some.
buck460XVR
New member
I live in Central Wisconsin amongst two of the largest packs of wolves in the state.
As I said I don't need to move, nor do I need you to send me your wolves, we plenty already.
Oh boy....more misinformed sensationalism.
Funny how if this is such a big threat, why hasn't there been more about this in the national media? Oh, that's right, they must be involved with this big conspiracy also.I wonder how many here that so profoundly predict the gloom and doom of wolves returning to the ecosystem have actually seen a wolf track in the wild, much less a live animal up close and in person. How many cannot actually identify a wolf track, but still try to convince us as to their expertise in wildlife biology. Many here make the point about folks that don't live amongst wolves don't know what they're talking about, but somehow if they are against wolves, their credibility strengthens. Funny how many of the hard-core anti-wolfers are from Texas and other states....where there are no Grey Wolves at all in the wild. But then, many times, these are the same folks that think deer hunting consists of squatting over a automatic feeder within a high fence enclosure.
When was the last time any of you walked over the top of fresh wolf tracks? Mine was yesterday while out bird hunting. Yep, gotta be aware of wolves with a birddog, because a wolf will kill them on sight, part of the instincts born within their brain. That's why a responsible dog owner keeps their dogs close. Let 'em run and shame on you, not the wolf. If you don't know better than this, you don't deserve to have a dog. The time before that was last Saturday while out deer hunting with my handguns. Saw more wolf tracks on this patch of highly pressured public land than deer tracts. Guess I coulda come here cryin' and blamed the wolves for my failure. Guess I shoulda posted a picture of Alaskan wolves downing a caribou to explain why I came home empty handed here in Wisconsin. But instead, I blame the cold for the crunchy ground and my moving to fast to get close enough for a shot. As a matter of fact, the wolf tracks made me confident there was deer in the area, as they don't stay where there isn't plenty of game available. These wolves have been here for decades and reintroduced themselves to Wisconsin from neighboring states where they were never eradicated. Because the state has no power to control their numbers, they have become somewhat of a problem as the DNR was forced to eradicate two small packs because they were preying on dogs left out at night and has lost their fear of coming close to buildings. Again, what responsible pet owner would leave their prized pets out all night to roam freely in wolf country is beyond me, but it was what it was. This was within 10 miles of where I live and right where I do a lot of hunting. The hunting of these animals quickly changed the wolves bad habits. I too think the feds need to get outta the wolf control business and leave it up to the individual state to decide what numbers are appropriate. As smart as wolves are it won't take them long to learn to go back to being secretive and to avoid humans. Their lack of this now is not because of being a sub-species, but a learned response. No threat, no reason to be wary. Have humans start hunting you down and killing you, you either get smart and stay far away or you die....problem solved.
As I said, there has been several packs around here for several decades. There has yet to be a case of Little Red Riding Hood being attacked while waiting for the bus, nor has there been a huge outbreak of Hydatid cysts growing in our livers and brains. Funny, the whitetail deer around here carry a form of CWD that is related to mad-cow disease. The deer do more monetary damage to crops, landscaping and vehicles and kill more people in Car/deer collisions than wolves, but folks still whine they want more deer and less wolves. Must be a selfish thing, eh?
Oh BTW, this from Alaska444s link...
.......Guess we all need to quit eatin' the wolf poop.
Dear Pond, James Pond,
No I did not say that there was a wolf or hydatid cyst problem across the waters from Finland. Secondly, go read about the public health issues in Finland and Russia caused by wolves and Hydatid cysts. You have no need to take my opinion for anything, yet you should acquaint yourself with the Finnish and Russian public records and reports of how they have targeted wolves as the main culprit in this public health issue.
Having grown up in Alaska and northern Maine and now living in Northern Idaho the better part of the year, I will be the first to state that we need to preserve wild areas and strike a balance with resource use and wild life preservation. Nevertheless, we do all benefit from our high tech, industrial society and I seriously doubt that many will have desire to chuck it all and go live in a tent in the subarctic living off of the land. A great deal of resources now go to mitigating the impact of our industrialized life on the ecosystem with many areas of great success. No argument there at all, however, that is NOT the issue we are discussing.
We are discussing placing a non-native subspecies of wolves "designed" by "nature" to be very successful killing machines in a land where prey have a distinct survival advantage over the wolves. Caribou simply are faster, herd in larger groups and are in balance with the Mackenzie Valley wolves that truly have little impact on Caribou populations.
Take this same highly skilled, large aggressive creature that works hard to feed in the harsh Arctic and Sub-arctic regions, place them in much more temperate climates where more of their pups survive, where deer and elk are MUCH easier prey that are much more solitary than caribou to the north and watch what happens to your ungulate population that truly is not capable of coping with such a terrorizing presence. Simply put, these wolves don't have to work as hard to survive in this environment as up north.
When I was a kid, I rarely worried about dogs attacking me even though we were out and about all the time with dogs running lose just about everywhere. However, since that time, people have migrated to Pit Bulls and Rotty's to the point that it is a real issue when I go for walks in my neighborhood. They are all the SAME species, so why I am afraid now to walk without any protection, the least of which in CA is a walking stick, when as a kid with much less bulk to fight them off they never bothered me? Simply put, we now see a much different "subspecies" of dog with different behavior and much different modes of attack. Remember, just because you can breed a pit bull with a chiwawa (why any one would , I don't know) and they are the same species, but are you really going to argue that they are the same creature with the same characteristics?
I have given you much information, but it appears that you have not really studied this issue in depth. Dig up the research on the Finnish reasons for aggressively reducing wolf population levels and why they have done so as a public health initiative and then let's discuss that data specifically instead of personal opinions not based on the facts.
No I did not say that there was a wolf or hydatid cyst problem across the waters from Finland. Secondly, go read about the public health issues in Finland and Russia caused by wolves and Hydatid cysts. You have no need to take my opinion for anything, yet you should acquaint yourself with the Finnish and Russian public records and reports of how they have targeted wolves as the main culprit in this public health issue.
Having grown up in Alaska and northern Maine and now living in Northern Idaho the better part of the year, I will be the first to state that we need to preserve wild areas and strike a balance with resource use and wild life preservation. Nevertheless, we do all benefit from our high tech, industrial society and I seriously doubt that many will have desire to chuck it all and go live in a tent in the subarctic living off of the land. A great deal of resources now go to mitigating the impact of our industrialized life on the ecosystem with many areas of great success. No argument there at all, however, that is NOT the issue we are discussing.
We are discussing placing a non-native subspecies of wolves "designed" by "nature" to be very successful killing machines in a land where prey have a distinct survival advantage over the wolves. Caribou simply are faster, herd in larger groups and are in balance with the Mackenzie Valley wolves that truly have little impact on Caribou populations.
Take this same highly skilled, large aggressive creature that works hard to feed in the harsh Arctic and Sub-arctic regions, place them in much more temperate climates where more of their pups survive, where deer and elk are MUCH easier prey that are much more solitary than caribou to the north and watch what happens to your ungulate population that truly is not capable of coping with such a terrorizing presence. Simply put, these wolves don't have to work as hard to survive in this environment as up north.
When I was a kid, I rarely worried about dogs attacking me even though we were out and about all the time with dogs running lose just about everywhere. However, since that time, people have migrated to Pit Bulls and Rotty's to the point that it is a real issue when I go for walks in my neighborhood. They are all the SAME species, so why I am afraid now to walk without any protection, the least of which in CA is a walking stick, when as a kid with much less bulk to fight them off they never bothered me? Simply put, we now see a much different "subspecies" of dog with different behavior and much different modes of attack. Remember, just because you can breed a pit bull with a chiwawa (why any one would , I don't know) and they are the same species, but are you really going to argue that they are the same creature with the same characteristics?
I have given you much information, but it appears that you have not really studied this issue in depth. Dig up the research on the Finnish reasons for aggressively reducing wolf population levels and why they have done so as a public health initiative and then let's discuss that data specifically instead of personal opinions not based on the facts.
Some years back the Colorado Division of Wildlife had a public meeting in Ft Collins,Co to discuss deer mgt ,particularly because deer populations were remarkably down.
We were shown some film clips created with the help of the Fed Fish and Wildlife.It showed factors such as deer browsing vs other animals grazing,etc.Then they lightly danced over predation, saying the coyotes roll was controversial while including brilliant ideas like a tax funded program to administer contraception to coyotes.
Later in the presentation,we were told that mature doe deer were very successful at survival.Radio collar tracking had proved that.The issue of concern was fawn mortality.I have forgotten the numbers,but a very high percentage of fawns were being lost to coyotes in their first season.
During a break,I asked a DOW officer why they did not just ask us all to help control coyotes.
He explained forces far greater than he controlled what message he was to deliver,but,that privately,he wanted me to kill every coyote I could.He further explained how,on the Colorado/Utah border,they had the same problem.
What was interesting,Utah resumed shooting coyotes from the air,and,amazingly,fawn mortality dropped and the herds began to recover.
We still have no over the counter deer tags in Colorado.Everything is a draw.
I know,the topic is not coyotes.We had no wolves then.
I do not think the wolf lovers have much respect for the animals the wolves kill.
In fairness,I think the wolves should be released along the Appalachian Trail,maybe Central Park....
Its funny,the one wolf I believe we really need to preserve in our society is the one who lives outside the front door.The one who guards dignity.
That one the Fed wants to eradicate with dependency
I suggest this link to a Dillon Aero clip will provde an idea for a way to control wolves that would be suitable,in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYTDhFqxJzU
We were shown some film clips created with the help of the Fed Fish and Wildlife.It showed factors such as deer browsing vs other animals grazing,etc.Then they lightly danced over predation, saying the coyotes roll was controversial while including brilliant ideas like a tax funded program to administer contraception to coyotes.
Later in the presentation,we were told that mature doe deer were very successful at survival.Radio collar tracking had proved that.The issue of concern was fawn mortality.I have forgotten the numbers,but a very high percentage of fawns were being lost to coyotes in their first season.
During a break,I asked a DOW officer why they did not just ask us all to help control coyotes.
He explained forces far greater than he controlled what message he was to deliver,but,that privately,he wanted me to kill every coyote I could.He further explained how,on the Colorado/Utah border,they had the same problem.
What was interesting,Utah resumed shooting coyotes from the air,and,amazingly,fawn mortality dropped and the herds began to recover.
We still have no over the counter deer tags in Colorado.Everything is a draw.
I know,the topic is not coyotes.We had no wolves then.
I do not think the wolf lovers have much respect for the animals the wolves kill.
In fairness,I think the wolves should be released along the Appalachian Trail,maybe Central Park....
Its funny,the one wolf I believe we really need to preserve in our society is the one who lives outside the front door.The one who guards dignity.
That one the Fed wants to eradicate with dependency
I suggest this link to a Dillon Aero clip will provde an idea for a way to control wolves that would be suitable,in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYTDhFqxJzU
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truthteller
Inactive
Photo of 25 wolves: description inaccurate.
This photo of 25 wolves is real. It was taken in Canada, not Wyoming. The author deserves credit for his photo. Please see this link:
http://www.wildlifeartjournal.com/blog/341/wolf-pack-train.html#
This photo of 25 wolves is real. It was taken in Canada, not Wyoming. The author deserves credit for his photo. Please see this link:
http://www.wildlifeartjournal.com/blog/341/wolf-pack-train.html#
Dear buck460XVR, simply because you are not informed about this issue does not make my documented and sound communication of articles, reports and studies on these issues conspiracy or lunacy in some manner that you are erroneously trying to imply. Yes, Echinococcus, Hydatid disease is a public health issue in Canada where indiginous people live among the wolves and use dogs in their culture for many purposes. Take a look at a scientific, medical report from Canada in one small village:
http://www.ajtmh.org/content/82/4/643.full
As far as why the Feds are pretty much silent to the population at risk, I will let others speculate on why that is, but Canada does not remain silent on this disease and has some well developed literature for hunters and others that spend time in the endemic areas.
http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases_bc/bc_wildlife_disease.pdf
The disease is easily caught by transfer in several ways, the most common is through an infected dog that then licks you in the face for instance. It can be easily transmitted in that manner.
http://www.science.org.au/nova/056/056key.htm
Finland has found that reducing the culprit animal host to low levels greatly reducing the risk to the people in the area. Once again, a little research on these issues will elaborate the facts, not opinions that I am relating.
As far as wolf tracks, ALL over the place during Idaho hunting season and you could hear them howling in the distance. One of my friends had wolf tracks the next morning right through the middle of their camp during the night in fresh snow. Wolf tracks, yeah, all over the place. More importantly, wolf scat was EVERYWHERE. That is the issue with Hydatid cysts especially for those that use hunting dogs for bear or mountain lions and then bring home this parasite easily transmissable to humans.
Yes, human infestation is a serious public health issue in Canada, Finland and Russia. No, this is not some sort of conspiracy claim. Get real my friend, and perhaps read and study some of the links I have provided prior to falsely accusing me of conspiracy mongering.
http://www.ajtmh.org/content/82/4/643.full
As far as why the Feds are pretty much silent to the population at risk, I will let others speculate on why that is, but Canada does not remain silent on this disease and has some well developed literature for hunters and others that spend time in the endemic areas.
http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases_bc/bc_wildlife_disease.pdf
The disease is easily caught by transfer in several ways, the most common is through an infected dog that then licks you in the face for instance. It can be easily transmitted in that manner.
http://www.science.org.au/nova/056/056key.htm
Finland has found that reducing the culprit animal host to low levels greatly reducing the risk to the people in the area. Once again, a little research on these issues will elaborate the facts, not opinions that I am relating.
As far as wolf tracks, ALL over the place during Idaho hunting season and you could hear them howling in the distance. One of my friends had wolf tracks the next morning right through the middle of their camp during the night in fresh snow. Wolf tracks, yeah, all over the place. More importantly, wolf scat was EVERYWHERE. That is the issue with Hydatid cysts especially for those that use hunting dogs for bear or mountain lions and then bring home this parasite easily transmissable to humans.
Yes, human infestation is a serious public health issue in Canada, Finland and Russia. No, this is not some sort of conspiracy claim. Get real my friend, and perhaps read and study some of the links I have provided prior to falsely accusing me of conspiracy mongering.
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buck460XVR
New member
I've spent the last hour doing just as you asked and have read the "Management plan for the wolf population in Finland" as prepared by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. Funny how their story is much different than yours. From what they say they are not aggressively reducing wolf populations, but are allowing populations to stay the same in half the country while allowing the population to increase in the other half. Altho they do make mention of the parasite you claim will be the death of us all, they make no mention of it being a major health risk, much less of any mass outbreaks. Same with the risks to humans. They claim most of the negativity for the wolf comes from unfounded fear, and that even tho there is no records of a wolf attack on humans in Finland in the last two centuries, the government still provides transportation for school children within the wolfs range. I thought it interesting that they claim the majority of this unfounded fear is harbored in females, the old and the uneducated.
Oh....just in case you want to read it, here's the link........Management plan for the wolf population in Finland
IDAHO83501
New member
Sad picture,,,I'm sorry for your loss..........Here in the Clearwater region of Idaho,,,our Elk numbers,,and Elk hunting have fallen on hard times....Wolves are Evil....plain and simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dear buck460XVR, you are failing to recognize the serious public health issues of the 1950-1970's that lead Finland and Russia to wage a government sponsored battle against the wolves in those areas to keep them to the lowest possible levels without complete extermination. You are quoting a political document drawn up by politicians. Let's go back and look at some historical and scientific reports that will give you the background on this issue and why many scientists in Finland and Russia shake their head in complete dismay at Americans placing these beasts back into the ecosystem where they are the known propagator of Hydatid disease. In addition, the snow mobile has replaced many of the duties that dogs performed reducing the contact with Hydatid disease due to wolves.
Finland keeps a very close eye on the interaction of wolves and reindeer since reindeer is such an important economic force for the native peoples of Finland. In many ways, Finland has already secured a rational approach to wolves and management of them is quite closely followed due to the history of out of control disease from a generation ago. The report you cited is completely devoid of the true history of the battle of Finland against the wolves. Go figure why, but here is an old scientific report on Hydadit disease and wolves.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...ch="finland hydatid disease reindeer herders"
I now carry enough ammo for my rifle and revolver to protect against an entire wolf pack. I used to carry enough to protect against a bear or mountain lion with loaded gun and one speed loader. Now, I carry 3-4 speed loaders, my 20 pack rifle cartridges in a leather case with both my .44 magnum revolver and my .444 Marlin loaded completely. I hope I never encounter them, but from the folks that report being surrounded by wolves while on their pack horses, etc, they were not at all afraid of the sound of a rifle or pistol. In addition, I now leave my boots out in the garage and do not bring them into the house any longer because of all the wolf poo that you may have no idea you even went near. Since, 2008, the numbers of wolves in Northern Idaho is exploding. No wonder the governor signed the wolf disaster bill back in April.
I would invite folks to come up to Idaho and spend some time with the folks that spend their time in the woods. I suspect that after a couple months hanging out, you will have a very different attitude towards these creatures. I would strongly recommend spending some time with the ranchers and what they are up against in bringing that beef to the market all of us enjoy. It is time to bring some common sense. No one is talking about making the wolves go extinct, but I will tell you, no one missed them at all while they were gone from this ecosystem and no one that spends any time out in the woods of Idaho is happy that they are back.
Here is an opinion from a Canadian scientist who has studied the Echinococcus organism for years. We should pay attention to some real science on this issue and learn from the Fins and Russians how they handled these issues nearly 50 years ago.
http://leg.mt.gov/content/Committee...Documents/May2010/geist-wolf-disease-memo.pdf
Finland keeps a very close eye on the interaction of wolves and reindeer since reindeer is such an important economic force for the native peoples of Finland. In many ways, Finland has already secured a rational approach to wolves and management of them is quite closely followed due to the history of out of control disease from a generation ago. The report you cited is completely devoid of the true history of the battle of Finland against the wolves. Go figure why, but here is an old scientific report on Hydadit disease and wolves.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...ch="finland hydatid disease reindeer herders"
I now carry enough ammo for my rifle and revolver to protect against an entire wolf pack. I used to carry enough to protect against a bear or mountain lion with loaded gun and one speed loader. Now, I carry 3-4 speed loaders, my 20 pack rifle cartridges in a leather case with both my .44 magnum revolver and my .444 Marlin loaded completely. I hope I never encounter them, but from the folks that report being surrounded by wolves while on their pack horses, etc, they were not at all afraid of the sound of a rifle or pistol. In addition, I now leave my boots out in the garage and do not bring them into the house any longer because of all the wolf poo that you may have no idea you even went near. Since, 2008, the numbers of wolves in Northern Idaho is exploding. No wonder the governor signed the wolf disaster bill back in April.
I would invite folks to come up to Idaho and spend some time with the folks that spend their time in the woods. I suspect that after a couple months hanging out, you will have a very different attitude towards these creatures. I would strongly recommend spending some time with the ranchers and what they are up against in bringing that beef to the market all of us enjoy. It is time to bring some common sense. No one is talking about making the wolves go extinct, but I will tell you, no one missed them at all while they were gone from this ecosystem and no one that spends any time out in the woods of Idaho is happy that they are back.
Here is an opinion from a Canadian scientist who has studied the Echinococcus organism for years. We should pay attention to some real science on this issue and learn from the Fins and Russians how they handled these issues nearly 50 years ago.
http://leg.mt.gov/content/Committee...Documents/May2010/geist-wolf-disease-memo.pdf