ELR reloading article.. interesting data

Some writer interviewed a fairly large group (8-12) of bench rest shooters.

One guy would swear X was the end and be all and the next guy said it was Y and no two agreed on all of what was important.

It was pretty funny. Seems like faith has a lot to do with it.
 
The most accurate B.R. shooter I know (currently holds a world record and has held several) shoots with virtually no neck tension.
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I would bet a dollar he is shooting short range benchrest with a 6PPC or 30 BR custom rig. Plus the guy would probably be a winner no matter what kit he is running. Gear can only get you half way there if you can't read the environment and have perfect technique you are screwed .

In mid and long range I have seen targets cleaned with double digit X count shot with factory ammo in the right hands and a good rifle. For that matter a while back a guy came to a 300 match with a 6 CM Ruger Precision with less than 50 rounds through it and some bulk Hornady ammo and shot a 199

Back to topic I bought a bushing die and played with neck tensions last year and found what works for me in my rifles, they are garage built F class rifles but they get me by for my skill level. I believe that what works for one rifle/cartridge/discipline is not the universal truth. You have to find what works for you in your loads

Just my opinion

oh and a edit, there are some benchresters that hold clinics around the country. Not saying they don't still hold a bit back but if you have the drive and the resources to pursue it the only thing that will limit you is your abilities
 
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And all I use is 'bullet hold'; when it comes to bullet hold I want all the bullet hold I can get; because! ? I can measure bullet hold in pounds. Again, as I have said it is possible to measure interference fit and crush fit but there is no gage made to measure tension except in pounds.

2. Though many of the competitors discuss how critical neck tension is, no one mentioned annealing. Doesn't mean that they don't do it
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I have given up on reloaders because it so difficult to get them away from the key board. And; they would have to find some way to measure the effort necessary to seat a bullet as in before annealing and again after annealing with a tool that does not exist as in a seating die that measures bullet seating effort in pounds!!!! Wait! THE PRESS DOES EXIST, problem, it measures in pounds:rolleyes:

F. Guffey
 
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I have given up on reloaders because it so difficult to get them away from the key board. And; they would have to find some way to measure the effort necessary to seat a bullet as in before annealing and again after annealing with a tool that does not exist as in a seating die that measures bullet seating effort in pounds!!!! Wait! THE PRESS DOES EXIST, problem, it measures in pounds
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Again; Your link just about covers it with one exception, I want to know how much effort is required to seat a bullet. I can not find tension effort like 15 tensions or a chart that converts tensions to pounds, if annealing softens the neck there is no chart that guides the reloader through the change in effort to match interference fit or crush fit.

There are presses available that measure the effort necessary to seat a bullet; the presses measure in pounds.

F. Guffey
 
I found the above 2 items seemingly in conflict, hammering the round into concentricity seemingly would affect neck tension. And in 4 pages of content which talked extensively about low sd, runout and neck tension i found it curious that there was no mention of annealing by anyone.
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I have mentioned using my gasket cutting very small ball peen hammers on cases that would not fit the correct RCBS shell holders. My friend died a few months ago, he was the builder of bench rest type rifles; he chambered a bunch of them in an odd caliber meaning the cases were expansive. He tried to shape and reshape and or form cases only to find it was not as easy as most of his other friends claimed. And then 'finally' he called me, he instructed me to bring the other #4 RCBS shell holder; instead, I brought the small ball peen gasket cutting hammer.

Now; had he asked me to bring something that would correct run out/wobble or cases that ran around in a circle as thought they were cammed I would have told him we will make one of those tools when I get there.

I like the one about the bill the old retired electrician sent to his former employer. The bill was #5,000.00 dollars for 4 hours of work including travel time.

His old boss was not happy and asked him to justify the bill; he explained to his boss it was not so much about 'the fixing' but knowing what to fix.

F. Guffey
 
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As long as the amount of interference fit is within the springiness (elastic) range of the brass in both the annealed and the work-hardened cases, there won't be a difference in how hard it hangs onto the bullet because the modulus of elasticity is the same for hard and soft brass.

Tension refers to tensile stress normal to the inside surface of the neck which is measured in pounds per square inch. You can work it out as hoop stress going backwards from the strain. But nobody worries what that is in a neck because even if you did know, all you could do with it is multiply it by the square inches of contact with the bullet and then by the coefficient of friction to calculate bullet pull in pounds, and given brass alloy variations and carbon deposits and lube traces, it is more sensible to just measure the seating force as you load. I have a commercial instrument that does that (RSI Load Force), but you can put a strain gauge on your press and use a load cell readout to do the same thing.
 
Unclenick the way i read this is by minimizing the amount of sizing you increase your odds of being within the modulus of elasticity and therefore increase your consistency. Hence light neck tension better accuracy in theory
 
Hence light neck tension better accuracy in theory
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Did not work out that way for Litz in his latest Modern Advancements

In Chapter 6 tests .223, .243, and .308 using .001 and .003 neck tension. In .223 and .243 the velocities were much more consistent with more neck tension and in .308 there was no difference at all. I had similar results when I experimented with .223 and .260 and have settled on .003 neck tension
 
dawg not having read the book...

I should have qualified my comments. If brass was new or perhaps 1x fired the modulus of elasticity would be larger than if he were on say the 4 or 5th firing (if i understand nicks post properly) over the long haul the modulus of elasticity shrinks and those same rounds w .003 of neck tension may not perform the same way due to springback, or inconsistent neck tension.
 
Just my opinion here but I think we sweat too many things unless we are serious bench rest shooters trying to turn .15 groups into .10 groups. My gun and ammo are much better than I am at my current shooting skill level.

I shot a personal best of 198 this weekend with a group that measured 1.12 MOA across. It wasn't the ammo that limited me nor was it the rifle. It is my wind and mirage skills and my shooting technique. I had a .6 vertical

https://imgur.com/yaJWuj8

to put that target in perspective there were 4 clean 200's shot at the same match and several shooters scored double digit X counts
 
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I made my seating die using the chamber reamer. I insert brass case in shell holder after powder of course, set projectile on top, raise case until it just touches shoulder inside die. Then I use lever on top of press to seat projectile to proper depth. Die is made to exacting tolerances to minimize run-out.
 
1stmar said:
I should have qualified my comments. If brass was new or perhaps 1x fired the modulus of elasticity would be larger than if he were on say the 4 or 5th firing (if i understand nicks post properly) over the long haul the modulus of elasticity shrinks and those same rounds w .003 of neck tension may not perform the same way due to springback, or inconsistent neck tension.
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Actually, it's the other way around. The modulus of elasticity is constant and unchanging, regardless of how much work-hardening the brass has. It determines how hard it is to stretch the metal a certain percent. I believe this is why Litz found no performance difference in freshly annealed cases and those fired and loaded 10 times. It is also why we see so many people have numerous technical approaches to annealing reporting their method works for them. They can't all be hitting the same hardness numbers.

The thing that changes as the brass work-hardens is its tensile strength which determines the amount of pressure that must be applied to the metal's cross-section to make it yield (take a permanent bend). In other words, how big the percent of stretch is that you can apply to the metal and still have it spring back against the bullet is greater with the work-hardened neck than for a softened neck. It's the difference between a piece of soft metal that bends easily and the same metal hardened to spring temper which lets it bend considerably further before taking a permanent bent. Too hard, and you get into brittleness, but that's getting beyond the scope of what we are dealing with here.

The above is why, ideally, annealing is taken just far enough to stress-relieve the brass, but not far enough to soften it much. You want tighter fitting necks to hold on harder and not to start taking a set at a wider percent of stretch. Harder hold on the bullet raises the starting pressure of a cartridge, the same as crimping does. Raised start pressure gives the powder more time to get its pressure up enough for the burn to be consistent.
 
Thanks again Nick, that explanation of annealing makes perfect sense. Also it makes it clear why a "perfect" anneal is not necessary as long as one does not go to extremes.
 
The above is why, ideally, annealing is taken just far enough to stress-relieve the brass, but not far enough to soften it much. You want tighter fitting necks to hold on harder and not start to take the permanent bend at a wider diameter. Harder hold on the bullet raises the starting pressure of a cartridge, the same as crimping does. Raised start pressure gives the powder more time to get its pressure up enough for the burn to be consistent.
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I want all the bullet hold I can get; do not get me wrong, I believe neck tension is cute but I have this problem: I can not measure neck tension in pounds and I have no way to convert interference fit in thousandths, crush fits and or tensions.

And then there is time and pressure, as I mentioned earlier at 'the arsenal', they got up to 600 pounds of bullet hold. THAT HAD TO BE 'BEFORE THE INTERNET' after the invention of the Internet they would have called it neck tensions with no way to convert to pounds.

Again, I settled on a method and or techniques for annealing: I gleaned through some information looking for rules that would apply to annealing. After I decided on a few rules I made a tool for annealing that agreed and or did not violate the rules of annealing.

F. Guffey
 
Harder hold on the bullet raises the starting pressure of a cartridge, the same as crimping does.
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And Lyman said crimping can be a bad habit because crimping can reduce bullet hold and later as in years Dillon said crimping and seating at the same time can be a bad habit because there is a big chance seating while crimping can reduce bullet hold. They did that while making a 4 position press with no place for my lock-out die.

F. Guffey
 
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