Elmer would have liked Glocks...

So... what do you guys think?
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The 1911 ain't got no flies on it when it comes to point shooting or hip shooting. What's unnatural for one shooter is a perfect fit for another. Feel and fit is completely subjective.


Complete and udder lie.
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Complete and utter truth that Glock does not condone or endorse the use of handloads or cast bullets.

Udders are where milk comes from. ;)
 
I may have been wrong about a lot of things, but Elmer Keith was my friend, and one thing I can say categorically about him is that he appreciated any firearm that worked. I have a Glock 20 and I do not think for a second that Elmer would think that it was anything but a well made, serviceable fighting pistol, worthy of fitting out the fighting man. I would think that Elmer's only objections would be that this fighting handgun was not made in the United States, but he had made previous execeptions to this rule. The Glock 20 has all of the desirable attributes Elmer would have desired: caliber above .40, bullet weight at or above 180 grains, velocity above 1350 fps. There are many who don't want a semi-auto pistol that delivers these goods. I am not one of these. I load and shoot my Glock 20 as much as I load and shoot my .41, .44 and .454 Casull Magnums; knowing that they all have their place in my handgun battery. I'm getting pretty worn out now, not interested in the next generation of S&W .460 and .500 Magnums. Rheumatoid arthritis is taking it's toll, but I'll keep shooting my old magnum sixguns, like my heros; Elmer Keith, Lee Jurras, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan. I got to meet and know all of those men, and care for them with a heart I cannot describe.;) Elmer was the most gruff, but like a grandfather.:) Lee Jurras was the ultimate technician.:) As a former cop, I would want Bill Jordan to cover my ass in a tight situation.:) Then there was Skeeter. Skeeter was the guy you would want to back up Jordan in a tight situation, shoot cayotes on a Sunday morning, clean guns anytime you were too tired to do so, and drink Tequila with whenever he took a liking to do so. I don't know how many of my friends will be in Heaven; but Esquitter will be just past the gate. See you soon Skeeter!:):)
 
Never saw one article he wrote during the 70's about a auto anything. Always wrote about heavily loaded 44 Special and 44 Mag.
 
Those who state that you can't reload for Glocks are either being disingenuous or you're just ignorant about Glocks. Those who don't realize that old Elmer would have been smart enough to change a Glock's sights are equally ignorant about Elmer. ;)
 
Do reloads void a Glock warranty?

That would be my question. Gaston's opinion would only concern me if there were going to be warranty related ramifications.

I do know that Glocks physically handle good reloads just fine. I don't know if it's a good idea if one wants free warranty service. Anybody know if reloads impact Glock's warranty?
 
Being as the downfall of the .41 magnum was too much recoil for a lot of LEO, Elmer would probably be a proponent of the .40S&W as the caliber for issue weapons.
 
Oddly enough, the biggest issue I think Elmer would've had with a Glock would have indeed been the grip. Not the angle mind you, but the shape. If you look carefully at the stocks that Elmer preferred for his DA Sixguns, you'll notice that rather than the large, blocky target stocks, they were the smaller magna-style with a carving of a steer's head or the like positioned so as to give a palm swell in the right area. I hypothesize that this is what Elmer found most comfortable because he was not an overly large man and had hands that were not overly large. Like Kieth, I have found that a palm swell in the right area makes all the difference in the feel of a handgun. My issue with the Glock grip, as I think Elmer's would've been, is not the angle but the wide, squarish, flat-sided grip simply doesn't fit me well. While the angle is the same on a Luger and .22's such as the Ruger MkI/II/III, those hanguns all have slimmer and/or more rounded grips thusly making them more comfortable in my hand.
 
Grip shape

+1

I hadn't owned a semi-auto with a good palm-swell shape until I bought my CZ. With palm-swell, my CZ grip feels closer to the Hogue grips on my revolvers than it does to the grips on my other semi-autos. Now all my other pistols feel not quite right. They still shoot fine, but none of them feel as comfortable.

This is especially true of my G21. It lacks the taper to the top of the grip that all my other, non-CZ pistols have; it's kind of like gripping a beam. (Luckily, I have long hands, but still...) The other thing I don't care for with Glocks in general is the trigger guard. It's wide, I suppose because it's polymer, and the shape of it rides just wrong on the knuckle of my middle finger.

In defense of the G21, it holds a lot of .45, it delivers it with superb accuracy for a duty sidearm, and it is easy to use. It's an excellent pistol, for its intended purpose. It's just not particularly comfortable to my hand.
 
I have nothing tangible to add to this very interesting discussion other than:

--it is quite interesting, and that's a feat these days, coming up with a topic that hasn't been discussed! :D

--I'm of the camp that Elmer was a "gun guy." I consider myself a gun guy. I don't pretend to think that I'm like Elmer a lot, or that I should compare myself to him, but the common denominator for me has always been, "if it's a firearm, I'm totally interested!" and I just feel like Elmer might think a little that way, too.

--When I think of guys like Keith, Skeeter, Jeff Cooper and others that are no longer with us, it makes me kind of sad that they aren't experiencing the same trends that we are. Sure, many of the "old guys" would be annoyed or even incensed with some of the seriously plastic guns we have these days, but I think they'd also very much enjoy the right to carry that's swept the nation, events like the Appleseed, the Tea Parties, the long range .50 cal rifle hobbyists, etc etc.

Anyhow, nice topic.
 
The complete udder answer!

Complete and udder lie. My uncle has a Glock 21 which has had almost nothing but a steady diet of cast lead swc, all handloads. it has had 50,000+ rounds through it and still extremely accurate for a stock gun (absolutley no work done, except hogue grips). I took my ccw test with it and put 50 rounds in an 8" group from 25 yds.

No Reloads? No Lead? complete b as in b, s as in s.
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While I believe your account, glocks being recommend with FMJ ammo is not utter BS. The glock has polygonal rifling which causes increased leading when using lead bullets. I suppose one could reload lead bullets weak to avoid leading but the glocks are all designed for FMJ or semi jacketed bullets. While the lead may not cause malfunctions in a glock, it would certainly decrease accuracy by obscuring rifling and it would increase the cleaning intervals needed for optimal function. In case you haven't noticed, almost all aftermarket glock barrels advertise that lead can be used in them because it is NOT recommend for glock handguns due to the factory barrels. I hope this clears up some of the udder confusion ;)
 
Oddly enough, the biggest issue I think Elmer would've had with a Glock would have indeed been the grip.
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Elmer would go spend a week with Gaston and get the problem corrected.
 
Oddly enough, the biggest issue I think Elmer would've had with a Glock would have indeed been the grip. Not the angle mind you, but the shape. If you look carefully at the stocks that Elmer preferred for his DA Sixguns, you'll notice that rather than the large, blocky target stocks, they were the smaller magna-style with a carving of a steer's head or the like positioned so as to give a palm swell in the right area. I hypothesize that this is what Elmer found most comfortable because he was not an overly large man and had hands that were not overly large. Like Kieth, I have found that a palm swell in the right area makes all the difference in the feel of a handgun. My issue with the Glock grip, as I think Elmer's would've been, is not the angle but the wide, squarish, flat-sided grip simply doesn't fit me well. While the angle is the same on a Luger and .22's such as the Ruger MkI/II/III, those hanguns all have slimmer and/or more rounded grips thusly making them more comfortable in my hand.
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One of the things about Elmer thag is seldom mentioned is that he had incredibly tough hands, but he did not have large hands. When I first shook Elmer's hand I has about 16 and his hand felt like rawhide. This was because he had handled ropes for most of his life, and on many occasions when he was trying to halt broncs and bulls, the ropes had cut right through gloves and down to tendons and bone. His hands were smaller than mine, and he could not make a really tight fist, something I have seen many times since with rodeo cowboys, but when he clamped down it was like a vice grip. I think that if you really offended Elmer, and he grabbed you by the throat, it would be like getting a pit bull to get him to let go. But that would not happen, as while Elmer had a temper, I never saw a single sign of malice in him. This powerful grip was one of his advantages when it came to shooting heavy recoiling handguns. He grew up in hard times, and he had to be the way he was to have survived. But, and this is just my opinion, Elmer, for all his gruff exterior, had one of the kindest and generous souls I have ever known. I had my Mom buy me a Ruger Super Blackhawk when I was 16 and I started writing Elmer and asking what were probably some of the dumbest questions imaginable about loading and shooting the .44 Magnum. He answered every one of my letters, then we started talking on the phone, and he ended up inviting me to come and visit him in Salmon River. I really came to love that old man. He almost managed to get me to appreciate smoking cigars, something I have never done since the last time I visited him. There are a lot of great men, and a few great gun writers; but only one Elmer Keith. I'll see him again in the not too distant future. :):):)
 
Regarding grip angles

The fact is, neither are 'just right'. What works is what one trains to use.
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Thank you, kind sir.

I have been amused by this for some time, and never commented on it. Glock's ads say "After comprehensive studies of the firing hand, a grip angle of 105% was chosen to provide best firing results." But TFL posts abound that complain about the "wrong" grip angle on Glocks. When you really read those posts, many of them eventually say that they shoot 1911's all the time, and I suspect that most of the rest shoot other guns, too, without saying it in their posts.

So the answer is, it is only "wrong" if you aren't used to it! Practice produces muscle memory. People are accustomed to the guns they shoot regularly - shocker!
 
Then again,

one never sees a forward angled grip.

Training matters, but so do ergonomics. If you disagree, try flying a Piper Seminole in IMC conditions. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put the manifold pressure gauge where you have to look under and around the control yoke to see it deserves a kick in the jimmy. It's no fun, even for guys with lots of hours. (Note: Airline transport pilot rated former Naval Aviator, with commercial and private jet time as well.)

(This matters because it means every time you make a power adjustment, you have to take your scan off the instruments that tell you aircraft attitude, performance, and navigation data. Really, really poor placement.)

Despite training, my little cousin tended to short-stroke a Marlin 336, resulting in cartridges lodging behind the loading gate. His arms weren't quite long enough to operate it reliably. Is the 336 a bad rifle? No. Is it a bad rifle for him? Yes. Next time I take him out, he'll use a short action bolt, most likely.

Ok, so I'm in a handgun forum talking airplanes and rifles....

The point is, though, that training can overcome a lot of ergonomic issues. There may be times when it has to do so. However, when choosing a handgun for myself, I want something that feels good in my hand, that points naturally for me, and that operates in an instinctive manner. This means I can manipulate slide stop/release, safety/decocker (whichever, I have both), and magazine release with my primary shooting hand. It means the grip is comfortable, and lends itself to my hand finding the same shooting position nearly automatically on the draw.

Prior training and experience can bias the way one "naturally" points. In that sense, ergonomics can be impacted by preconception. However, my hand shape and size doesn't change. The angle my wrist feels most comfortable at is really a range, but it would be possible to design a grip outside that range.

On the bright side, most firearms with truly poor ergonomics tend to fizzle out rapidly; either that, or the manufacturer recognizes and corrects the problem relatively early in the production run.
 
The only hand gun that had a grip I didn't like was the standard Ruger 22. Even so, after one day in the field with it, I got used to it and learned to shoot it. I have carried a Glock 21 daily for 14 years, and right out of the box I thought it pointed just fine. Shoot any gun enough and it will become second nature to you.
 
Elmer Keith with a GLOCK! I'd stake my money on the Kenyan producing a birth certificate before Elmer carrying a Glock. The 1911 is a guns gun and Elmer still prefered wheel guns, so I find it hard to see Elmer with a Glock. Lets say for arguments sake Elmer fell in love with the 10mm, then I would see Elmer with a 1911 chambered in 10mm.
 
So the answer is, it is only "wrong" if you aren't used to it! Practice produces muscle memory. People are accustomed to the guns they shoot regularly - shocker!
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Wasn't that way for me. A Glock 21 was my second centerfire semi-auto 18yrs ago but the first I spent any amount of time with. I shot well with it from the start and practiced with it regularly for 12yrs but ended up selling it because the grip shape just did not agree with me. Also had a Glock 19 for about 5yrs but eventually traded it for a Springfield XD .45 because while the shape of the G19 was better than the G21, the angle is just not for me. Never has been and I never could get used to it. It was 12yrs after buying my first Glock that I got my first 1911 and the world changed. What I found was an autopistol that fit me perfectly. So I spent a lot of time with Glocks and still consider them to be excellent pistols for what they are, I just ended up graduating to something else. Something that fits me better and works better.....for me. Not at all to be taken as a slight against Glock.
 
Along the same lines....I wonder if Keith would have preferred the Walther P99 over the Glock....its grip seems more revolver-like than the Glock....

I also wonder if Keith would prefer the .40S&W over the 10mm....the .40 is loaded to max pressure already...at least the 10mm gives you some margin for error....
 
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