Elmer would have liked Glocks...

azredhawk44

Moderator
Blasphemy, I know... but good fun to stir the pot and see what comes about.:D

But I've found some references in Sixguns that lead me to believe that Elmer Keith would have very much liked Glocks.

I'll provide the specific cite later, but I'm interested in TFL's take to this idea that one of the patron saints of the bigbore wheelgun would approve of the plasticfantastic... and guess as to which model in particular he might most like.

Why do you think Elmer might approve or disapprove of the Glock pistol?
 
Elmer was a strange bird. I doubt neither Elmer nor Jack would have cared enough about a Glock to own one. Now, I can see Elmer with a big sling shot.
 
Easy....Glock 20.

Elmer liked rounds with some "substance" to them. I think he'd like a 10mm cartridge in the 200gr weight range doing 1200+ fps.
 
I don't think any gun has gone through the torture tests that the Glock has since it was introduced. I think he'd like it because no matter what you do to it, it just keeps on shootin'. He'd go for the reliability that is unsurpassed by any other handgun on the market. I hate to say it, but sometimes even a wheelgun won't turn.
 
Elmer wouldn't care much for Glock's barrels since he was quite fond of handloaded cast bullets. Likewise, the sights on Glocks aren't really condusive to the long-range sixgunnery that Elmer seemed to like. However, as far a semi-automatic cartridges go, Elmer probably would have been somewhat impressed with the 10mm since it gives as close to the magnum revolver ballistics he so loved in a reasonable sized handgun as you can get.
 
Since Elmer was a reloader (now there's an understatement!), and you cannot reload for Glocks (Gaston says so!), the Glock would be a non-starter for Keith.

Regards,

Walt

PS Seems that WebleyMkV and I posted at the same instant!
 
You're right... in principle he doesn't care for autopistols since he was an avid reloader and he hated scrounging all across the county for his fired brass.

And he was a big bore shooter, often dreaming about a light magnum .41, so the 10mm would be intriguing to him.

He was also a tinkerer and tuner with all his guns, either on his own or by proxy of a good gunsmith. Elmer would not have been above replacing the barrel for $100 and being able to shoot lead.

But no one has yet to grasp on the real reason I bring this up.;)
 
Look at it this way, Keith's perfected single action was the #5. A masterpiece by any definition of the word. Built by some of the finest gunsmiths of the time, Harold Croft's most infamous legacy. His original and ingenious latch mechanism, custom sights, custom one-off grip frame, full engraving and carved ivory stocks. It is still lusted-after to this day and only a few modern gunsmiths try to replicate it. The truest replica being one from Hamilton Bowen. Which can be yours for the princely sum of $10,000 for the "plain" model or $15,000 for the fully engraved, carved ivory stocked version. So you tell me, if that's what Keith looked for in a sixgun, what the hell would he want with a Glock???
 
I recall reading Elmer's review of the H&K VP70Z and he said "plastic stampings are OK for kids toys but I do not want them in any gun I am going to stake my life on."
 
I believe Uncle Elmer would like the Glock design as an issue weapon for peace officer use. Easy to teach, easy to use, reliable and highly resistant to neglect.

Guess for model? 23, maybe 20

He would also not be above sitting Gaston down for some tips on how to improve the great Austrian tupperware.
 
I submit the following:

In Sixguns, on his chapter of "Revolver Versus Auto Pistol," Keith writes back in his day that the only cartridge worthy of serious consideration for carry is the .45 ACP.

Keep in mind this was written in 1955.

The most powerful of all automatic pistols is the Colt Model 1911 Service pistol loaded with a 230 grain bullet at between 800 and 900 feet velocity.

Later on, he opines on the 7.65, 9mm and .38 Super:

The Lugers 7.65 and 9mm. and the Super .38 Colt have a much flatter trajectory with their high velocity ammunition, but deliver almost no stopping or killing power. Their light bullets slip through game or man with little shock effect and cause little hemorrhage. We have already told of one negro cow-puncher taking a gun full of Luger ammunition in the back and still being able to turn around and kill his murderer. We have also known of a treed cougar taking a gun full of Super .38's in the chest and still remain on the limb of a tree slowly bleeding out inside. One or two heavily loaded .44 Specials would have knocked him out, and the same will floor any man for the count.

Keith wasn't opposed to light weight guns that weren't 100% steel. He often praised aluminum as an alternative building material for service guns. Had plastic frames as revolutionary as the Glock been introduced in his time, he might have written as glowingly as this (when writing about a double action S&W model in 9mm that he wanted released in .45 ACP):

While the New Smith & Wesson is about the same size as the Colt Commander, it has better sights either for military or civilian use... Frame can be had in light alloy metal to reduce weight. This new Smith & Wesson, if made in .45 caliber, would be the ultimate in a compact, powerful, military auto loading pistol.

But... the reason in particular that I bring up the Glock over any other plastic fantastic...(be prepared for a shocker in this one):

The sixgun, either double or single action, points much better from the hip, or in instinctive night shooting, than does any auto pistol with the exception of the Luger and most of the .22 calibers.

WHAT'S THAT?!?! Elmer doesn't like the grip angle of the 1911? Say it ain't so! You're obviously reading that wrong, Red!

All large caliber automatics, with the exception of the Luger, point too low for fast hip shooting due to the fact that their grips are placed at too great an angle. Years ago the .45 Colt model 1911 was greatly improved in this respect with an arched housing, but it still points far lower than the Luger or a good revolver. One has to consciously pull the muzzle up to get it high enough to hit from the hip.

Just to hammer it home, he continues:

When we turn to the .22 caliber automatics, the story is different. Many are excellent pointers, but they are useful only for small game and target work. The Colt Match Target and Woodsman, the High Standard models and the Rugers, all point well and are more on the line of the Luger, but our big caliber auto pistols have far too much drop for any instinctive gun throwing or night fighting where the sights cannot be seen.

The big complaint against Glocks (aside from tupperware comments) is the grip angle. It points too high. Heck, I even said it with my Glock 21.

That "high" grip angle is what makes it possible to shoot by feel rather than via the sights.

While Elmer favored DA shooting for combat purposes and would certainly rather favor something like a CZ-97 or S&W 4506 in an aluminum frame, he would like the grip feel of the Glock over that of the 1911.

Been playing with his point recently the last couple nights with my (unloaded) Commander. Yeah, it comes up to eye level like a dream. But it doesn't snap to an assumed COM of a bad guy 5-10 feet away without a deliberate adjustment.

Redhawks, SP-101, even Taurus 94 "snap" to attention on a close in target without needing sights. Wish I had a Glock handy still to play with his notion. I'll probably get an arched MSH for my Colt to see how that affects the pointability from the hip.

Seems Elmer might have liked the Glock model 21 or 30. Even more he would have liked the model 20 in 10mm, given his penchant for a .41 caliber law enforcement revolver... but that's multiple levels of supposition.

So... what do you guys think?
 
It is possible to respect the engineering and function of something mechanical while despising the same machine for its artless and unaesthetic rendering. That is my attitude toward Glocks and , despite their longstanding mutual animosity I suspect that both Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith would have been in complete accord.
 
"...points right..."

That is a very old argument, about how the 1911 'points low'. Since I started shooting with a M1911A1 made by Ithaca Gun Company during WWII, my counter argument was "No. Revolvers shoot high!"

Brother Keith - rest his soul - was a revolver shooter primarily. He was 'conditioned' or used to the grip shape and angle of either double action or single action revolvers. The Lugar grip angle is indeed closer to the angle of a revolver grip.

The fact is, neither are 'just right'. What works is what one trains to use.

Note this does not apply to automobiles. Front wheel drive cars are just - unnatural!
 
No reloads in a Glock?

Complete and udder lie. My uncle has a Glock 21 which has had almost nothing but a steady diet of cast lead swc, all handloads. it has had 50,000+ rounds through it and still extremely accurate for a stock gun (absolutley no work done, except hogue grips). I took my ccw test with it and put 50 rounds in an 8" group from 25 yds.

No Reloads? No Lead? complete b as in b, s as in s.
 
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