Elmer Keith's 600yd shot

Status
Not open for further replies.
Correct, but the statement isn't that Ted found a jacket fragment from a Remington bullet. The statement is that Ted found "the part jacket from a Remington bullet". Taken in combination with Keith's earlier statement that the Remington .44Mag ammo had "a part jacket over the base band and under the grease groove" that's pretty conclusive.

In other words, it's not that a jacket fragment was found, the story indicates that the entire "part jacket" of the bullet came off and was found in the wound.

And, of course, the jacket from a .300 Magnum rifle round would be hard to confuse with the jacket from a .44Mag round.

I don't know if he made the shot or not, but as far as I can see there are no holes in his story. Everything he says is consistent with his other statements and there's nothing in it I can find that is demonstrably false or impossible.
 
No, it was more like a deep gas check that went up over the bottom lube groove.
There was still lead against the barrel.
 
I can't say for sure. Keith's description of it in his autobiography and in "Hell, I was There!" was that it "had a part jacket over the base band and under the grease groove."
 
Well Gentleman, you've given me more to think about, and I certainly don't think he was lying. But I can't help being wired to have to see things with my own eyes, not from Missouri, just a bit skeptical. Thanks to all.
 
Luck? Of course. But...
I think it was said of an NFL quarterback, not a pistol shooter, but when someone pointed out that dropping a ball into the arms of a running wide receiver was "luck", someone else noted that "you have to be damned good to be that lucky."

Nuff sed.

Jim
 
According to what I have read, the first S&W .44 Magnum went to Gen. Hatcher. Not sure if Keith got the second one, but I think he got one of the first 5.

And well before the commercial introduction of the gun & caliber.

Keith did a lot with that 4" .44 Magnum. Another of the stories I always liked was one time he took it fishing. Off Florida (IIRC), they went fishing for marlin. Didn't get any, but found a lot of sharks. Boat owner shot some with a .300 magnum. Fin would roll over, then come back up and keep on swimming. Range was about 80 yards.

Elmer said to have aimed "a foot below and a foot ahead" of the dorsal fin. Fin rolled over, and didn't come back up. Something which was repeated several times.

Apparently the hivel .30 cal bullet was "blowing up" in the water before hitting the shark, and not penetrating. Or that's what they thought happened, anyway. Keith's "slow speed" (compared to the rifle) non expanding bullets apparently had no trouble punching into the shark at that range.

There is no way a 44 magnum would penetrate the body of a full grown Mule deer buck at 600 yds. 600-700 fps is not going to do it.
Click to expand...

As to this, I'd say that while a .44 slug at that speed isn't as likely to exit, its certainly enough to reach the vitals on a broadside hit that doesn't hit heavy bone. And might be enough to exit if things are just right.
 
I once hit a Dr. Pepper can with an open sighted .22 which was around 400 yards away. It took 3 shots. I missed a rabbit which was 10 feet away with the same rifle. I believe he did it.
 
Apparently the hivel .30 cal bullet was "blowing up" in the water before hitting the shark, and not penetrating. Or that's what they thought happened, anyway. Keith's "slow speed" (compared to the rifle) non expanding bullets apparently had no trouble punching into the shark at that range.
Click to expand...
It's fairly common knowledge that high velocity bullets tend to fragment when they hit water, while slower rounds, like pistol bullets tend to travel further in water because they tend to stay together.

Myth busters shot a armor piercing .50 BMG bullet into a pool, the entire thing fragmented and lost all it's energy in about 3 feet, where as all of the slow pistol rounds held together and traveled further in water.
 
I posted a link earlier. To make it easier here is the story in Elmers own words. Lots of inaccurate info and misquotes so far. Read for yourself.

Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.” Paul said, “You take the rifle.”
“I said, how is it sighted?”
He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.” I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.
I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.” Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.

When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?” He said, “No, go ahead.”

I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.” There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.” Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.”

“Well,” I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.” He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.” I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.

Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?” He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.” Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.” There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.

I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.” After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.” Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.

Elmer Keith
Click to expand...
 
Very lucky shot if anything, the one thru the bucks nose, how would you know 100% what caused it, "Paul" had already shot the bucks leg off. What kind of scope did the 300 have to see random bullet impacts in the ground at that distance? I also would have figured Keith would have had a more competent hunting partner, anyone else who told a story like that would be accused of being a very poor hunter. How do you pace a distance down and up thru a canyon?
 
I'm surprised so few (I only counted one) have commented upon the ethics of this shot. Considering that the other hunter had a powerful scoped rifle with him, it seems to me the ethical behavior would have been to use that to dispatch the deer, not to experiment with a ridiculously long handgun shot that would have only marginal killing power at that range.

He had no business making this shot at that range when better tools were available to humanely dispatch that animal.
 
csmsss,
The first paragraph of the story tells why he didn't take the rifle. You should read it, its a good story.

With the pistol, he WAS using the best tool available to him for the job.

His hunting partner hit the deer on the first shot at some 500 yards, and then again while the deer was on the move. I would argue that's not incompetence.

I'm all for taking subsequent shots at any animal that's already limping away wounded.

My copy of "Hell, I was there" is actually in the mail as we speak. Can't wait to sit down and go through it.
 
Last edited:
So he could compensate for the drop of the 44 but not a 300 that was sighted 1" high instead of 3" high, really? Wow.
 
Can anyone give us the amount of elevation required for this and please don't say it doesn't matter. Maybe it's a little deceptive and hard to fathom? For the record, I do feel for what that poor deer went through.
 
I was going to comment on the ethics. Seems like the guy he was with didn't know how to shoot very well. Seemed to be taking WAY to many shots, and as I read it, seemed very unethical. The guy with the .300 should've been a better shot, .300 weatherby should DRT a deer/elk at that range with decent shot placement. Can't blame Keith for trying to put the animal out of it's misery even with a pistol, at that range. If Keith had taken the first shots and wounded the animal, it would've been a different story. Still that whole story did bother me a bit. I sure hope other hunters don't hunt like that. :mad:

Anyway, it'd be hard to know exact drop and holdover needed without the actual bullet and velocity numbers.

If we assume a 250 grain bullet @ 1400fps it's almost 600'' of drop, ~107'' drift in a 10mph crosswind and just under 2 seconds of flight time. That's not that much different than shooting a .308 1000 yards. Similar flight time and wind drift in the same conditions with roughly 100'' less drop (with the .308), depending on the load and bullet used.

Not impossible, as I already mentioned that a human was hit at over 1500 yards with a .50-90 sharps at roughly 1500fps, which I already mentioned had 137 feet of drop at 1000 yards.
There are subsonic sniper cartridges which are used past 500m which will drop more than that but usually those rifles have optics which allow you to adjust for elevation.
Personally I'd be less concerned with drop, than I would be with wind drift. A bullet moving that slow, and not very heavy for caliber, or streamlined will submit to the wind quite easily. This includes irregular winds such as updrafts, as well.

IMO hold over would be less of an issue than 'Kentucky windage' at that range, with a .44mag. Hold over is much more consistent and would be easier to account for. Any change in wind, could throw your shot off, while the holdover would be more or less the same for each shot, at the same range, making it easier to compensate, IMO.
 
Last edited:
Wind drift would seem to me also to be a bigger problem than drop. Still, why not take the 300?
 
Still, why not take the 300?
Click to expand...
My only guess, is that the bonehead pee'd away all of his ammo making those terrible shots before Keith could think to take the rifle from him and make the shot. I could be wrong though. Maybe the adrenaline, just had their heads in a different place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top