Eliminating tax/wait on short barrel rifle/shot gun

"Correct. A pistol-grip shotgun that came from the factory without a stock isn't legally a shotgun, it's an "other" on question 18 of the 4473 and then listed as "firearm with a pistol grip" in box 29. Firearms like this don't have barrel length restrictions, they simply have an overall length restriction of 26". So as long as your pistol-grip shotgun has an overall length of 26", you can have a barrel shorter than 18". On most shotguns, this means you can install a 14" barrel and a birds-head pistol grip and you'll meet the overall length requirement. "


Here is a question on this then, have you ever run into someone, maybe a LEO less knowledgeable than you who just measures the barrel and says "its too short"?
 
Mississippi said:
It is simply the way several just pounced on it as if I had insulted your wife or something.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I simply pounced on it like someone was giving out bad information about NFA firearms and then doubling-down on that bad information even after he was corrected. Even after you were informed that these firearms aren't actually banned, you continued to insist that they were. So please forgive me for being somewhat forceful in my comments; I figured that was the only way to get through to you. And apparently it worked. Unfortunately, it worked well enough that now you're offended and decided to throw out partisan political insults. Well, I apologize for hurting your feelings.

I can't tell you how often I have customers who think silencers are banned or that they need to get a mythical "Class 3 License" to own one. And it's usually because they read it on the Internet somewhere. It gets tiring. Threads like these are perfect examples of why we need to correct this type of bad information as quickly as possible.
 
Mississippi said:
Here is a question on this then, have you ever run into someone, maybe a LEO less knowledgeable than you who just measures the barrel and says "its too short"?
No, but I had something similar to that happen to a friend. He was at a range with his Serbu Super Shorty AOW (a short, pistol-gripped 870 shotgun) and a cop stopped him because he thought it was a short barrel shotgun. Short barrel shotguns are illegal here in Washington, but AOW's aren't.

Eventually the cop's supervisor came and set everything straight, but it was still a pain for my friend. Sure there will always be cops who don't understand the law and there will probably be more of them who don't understand the law when it comes to stuff like this. It's probably a good idea to carry copies of relevant ATF letters and rulings with you when you're out and about with these type of firearms, but that's not guaranteed to protect you.
 
Unfortunately, it worked well enough that now you're offended and decided to throw out partisan political insults. Well, I apologize for hurting your feelings.

I can't tell you how often I have customers who think silencers are banned or that they need to get a mythical "Class 3 License" to own one. And it's usually because they read it on the Internet somewhere. It gets tiring. Threads like these are perfect examples of why we need to correct this type of bad information as quickly as possible.
Today 11:34 AM

No hard feelings. I probably shouldn't have added an insult when complaining about insults either lol. I knew they weren't banned, but you are correct, people will search this stuff, read the word "banned" and then the misinformation spreads. Again, My fault. Made myself sound whiny ...:(
 
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Here is a question on this then, have you ever run into someone, maybe a LEO less knowledgeable than you who just measures the barrel and says "its too short"?

Never. Nobody is going to go to your house and measure it either. At least not unless you give them reason to do so.


Note:

You should also avoid using profanity and vulgarities even when (especially when) you try to work around the filter. I have no problem with it but a lot of people do and it is against the rules. Somebody will doubtless complain in a little bit if a mod does not notice it.
 
Although TFL sees many visits from me, I am still just the average Joe gun owner. A lot of these legal issues especially dealing with NFA items is really intimidating. There is a lot of misunderstanding, misinformation and personal bias mixed in with the truth.
Combine that with fees, inconvenience and wait times, it can be essentially viewed as a restriction of rights. This causes people to avoid these laymen's grey areas.

I get the spirit of the post, even though some misrepresentation of the laws occurred. I also feel that most people that have reached the point of considering an SBR or another NFA item has already submitted to a few background checks. Why should an NFA item be scrutinized any more than a permit that allows you to carry a pistol in public? Or why are these items restricted when unrestricted items can be functionally just as "dangerous" as NFA items?
 
Why should an NFA item be scrutinized any more than a permit that allows you to carry a pistol in public? Or why are these items restricted when unrestricted items can be functionally just as "dangerous" as NFA items?


Putting it in to the context of crime ridden, depression era, just barely post-prohibition era, the idea was (like most gun laws) to reduce crime. The big targets were machine guns and pistols. The missed on hand guns but nailed down machine guns for decades until $200 became reasonable. Short barreled weapons like rifles and machine guns were often used in high profile crimes in that era that was marked by heavy coats due to a climate change that resulted in a few decades of colder weather.

Sawed off shotguns are still used quite often in crimes where shotguns are used. No amount of regulation of barrel length will get rid of them. They are intimidating weapons, more powerful than most pistols and easier to retain in a struggle. Also often cheaper than a pistol. A sawed off shotgun is extremely easy to make involving only a shotgun and a hacksaw.

Suppressed weapons are commonly used in assassinations around the world. On average we saw 2-3 a month (attempts, not all successful) in Iraq in the cities that I patrolled. Most often this was done with pistols equipped with a suppressor. Unregistered suppressors are very cheap and easy to make without much equipment or machinery.

Due to the high concentration of security forces in Iraq in the cities a suppressed weapon offers a better chance to get away. Most often the attacker(s) would use a motorbike and ride up on the victim and either a passenger would open fire or the rider would stop and open fire. He would then speed away on the bike through alleys and goat paths making good on an escape. It got so bad in some places they banned the use of motorbikes. If these were more common in the US I think they would be adopted by criminal gangs for the same reasons as insurgents using them.

An SBR offers the concealability of a large pistol with the power of a rifle. Due to their higher cost and tougher time at making one work reliably I have never seen one used in a crime but I do hear about them from time to time. Rifles are already so rarely used in crimes that trotting out an expensive SBR almost never happens. Bigger cities are seeing an increase in AR/AK pistols used in crimes. The interesting thing here is that AK/AR pistols are difficult to aim well and require some training in their use. Since most criminals train rarely (if at all) lots of shots are being fire and few hits are occurring. So even though they have more capability in theory it simply does not work out that way in reality.

An AR/AK pistol is still a pistol though. This means that numbers on crime guns have not moved much.
 
That's very interesting, thank you.

In modern times, we law abiding gun owners have been background checked 5, 10, 20 and some greater than 30 times; many have gone through more than one state's conceal carry process. I don't think that when they finally get ahold of an NFA item these days, will turn to a life of crime. I think some of it is outdated.

I am curious, when did background checks for non-NFA firearms begin?
 
Sure there will always be cops who don't understand the law and there will probably be more of them who don't understand the law when it comes to stuff like this. It's probably a good idea to carry copies of relevant ATF letters and rulings with you when you're out and about with these type of firearms, but that's not

A friend of mine has a 1940 Indian motorcycle. Registered Antique. Under our state laws, he is not required to wear a helmet when he rides it, to and from motorcycle shows and events.

There is a general helmet law for motorcycles. He gets stopped sometimes. He carries a copy of the law with him when he rides.

He says that gets him out of about HALF of the tickets for not wearing a helmet. The rest of the time, the cops write the ticket anyway, and tell him, "If you're right, the judge will throw it out", and he is right, and they always do, but he still has to show up and prove he's right.

If you have ANY NFA item in public, always have a valid copy of all required licenses, tax stamps, and any other paperwork WITH YOU. Might not help with some types of people, but can't hurt.

Suppressed weapons are commonly used in assassinations around the world.
Yep, and back in the day, silent murder and poaching was one of the arguments used to support the passage of the NFA 34.

Interestingly enough, in some places (in Europe of all places) "silencers" are expected and may even be required for hunting.

An SBR offers the concealability of a large pistol with the power of a rifle. Due to their higher cost and tougher time at making one work reliably I have never seen one used in a crime but I do hear about them from time to time.

They aren't much in use today, probably due to the availability of military style carbines with folding stocks, but sawed off automatic rifles (BARs) were popular with Bonnie 7 Clyde, the Dillinger gang and others of that era. Check out the "whippet" or "whip guns, whippit guns, etc. What they did was break into govt armories, steal BARs, cut the stocks and the barrels short, and hang them in a home made harness under a long coat.

Criminals seldom worry about the expense of their weapons, cost of doing business, and all that. Cheap and free (stolen) that works well enough maximizes their profits.

Why should an NFA item be scrutinized any more than a permit that allows you to carry a pistol in public? Or why are these items restricted when unrestricted items can be functionally just as "dangerous" as NFA items?

I agree. Why should the background check for an NFA rifle, pistol, or shotgun take MONTHS, when the same thing with a few more inches of barrel or stock (non-NFA) only takes a few minutes and a phone call???

The only honest answer is because they can, and do get away with it.

I am curious, when did background checks for non-NFA firearms begin?

Nationally, I think that would be the Brady Bill.

Another one of the situations where they had the power to pass something, and our side did the best it could to make it less than everything they wanted.
Not the best possible outcome for our side, but less than what they wanted to stick us with.

Like the 94 AWB, there was no stopping something being passed, and we did get a sunset clause, the best we could do, at the time, politically.
 
I agree. Why should the background check for an NFA rifle, pistol, or shotgun take MONTHS, when the same thing with a few more inches of barrel or stock (non-NFA) only takes a few minutes and a phone call???

The only honest answer is because they can, and do get away with it.


That is a valid question, and I suppose your answer of "because they can" probably includes the fact that the longer wait discourages people beyond those who badly want one regardless of the barriers.
 
Interestingly enough, in some places (in Europe of all places) "silencers" are expected and may even be required for hunting.
Called "Moderators" and are sold OTC - same in New Zealand
 
Old Bill Dibble .....Putting it in to the context of crime ridden, depression era, just barely post-prohibition era, the idea was (like most gun laws) to reduce crime. The big targets were machine guns and pistols. The missed on hand guns but nailed down machine guns for decades until $200 became reasonable. Short barreled weapons like rifles and machine guns were often used in high profile crimes in that era that was marked by heavy coats due to a climate change that resulted in a few decades of colder weather.....
The NFA was intended to be a means of crime control.

The original text of the 1934 National Firearms Act included ALL concealable firearms (handguns and rifles and shotguns with less than an 18" bbl & 26" OAL). After lobbying by handgun manufacturers, the NFA was rewritten to not include pistols and revolvers. (and 16" bbl length for rifles was revised post WWII.)

Apparently Colt and S&W really didn't care about the SBR market back then. Kinda like Bill Ruger and his support for certain gun legislation. ;)

So every time you hear someone complain about "arbitrary" ATF regulations. ask them if they know the WHY of those regulations. ATF didn't just pull those nasty SBR/SBS/MG/AOW/Silencer rules outta their butt...........our elected representatives did.
 
The NFA was intended as a complete ban on firearms as a means of crime control.

The original text of the 1934 National Firearms Act included ALL concealable firearms (handguns and rifles and shotguns with less than an 18" bbl & 26" OAL). After lobbying by handgun manufacturers, the NFA was rewritten to not include pistols and revolvers. (and 16" bbl length for rifles was revised post WWII.)

Apparently Colt and S&W really didn't care about the SBR market back then. Kinda like Bill Ruger and his support for certain gun legislation.

So every time you hear someone complain about "arbitrary" ATF regulations. ask them if they know the WHY of those regulations. ATF didn't just pull those nasty SBR/SBS/MG/AOW/Silencer rules outta their butt...........our elected representatives did.

While I'm not as knowledgeable about this topic as y'all are, i do know enough to know that gun rights infringement has been going on for a long time.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Nixon wanted to ban handguns as well?
Anyway, folks in my family think that gun regulation is some relatively new push. But history says otherwise.

And it seems that gun rights fighters have won some very significant victories. And again, I could be wrong, but it seems today that gun rights are stronger than they were 30 yrs ago.
 
…i do know enough to know that gun rights infringement has been going on for a long time.

As already correctly noted: the courts determine what is or is not Constitutional, ultimately the Supreme Court.

Until such time as the NFA is ruled to be un-Constitutional, it remains a lawful firearm regulatory measure, in no manner ‘infringing’ on ‘gun rights,’ regardless how unwarranted or ill-conceived the Act is perceived to be.
 
We've gone way past "shall not be infringed" but people accepted it because of the greater good. Once that line was crossed, the rest of the constitution is just a paper with words.

Every one of our bill of rights has been fudged since. Probably began with prohibition, and spread from there.

The greater good is going to be the end of our free society.

Pretty troubling what one political faction in this country wants.

I think we've kicked the can further down the road.
 
The NFA was intended to be a means of crime control.

Some of us believe otherwise...

Some of us believe that the NFA 34 was a "jobs" bill for all those T-men who suddenly found that they had nothing to enforce with the repeal of Prohibition.

It was the middle of the Depression, and adding FEDERAL AGENTS to the soup lines would have done even MORE damage to people's confidence, not to mention the strong tendency of bureaucracies to protect their own, when possible.

SO, you make a TAX law, (and this is an important part in understanding the law, then, and how it is different now), and you TAX a TINY segment of gun owners. Remember, at the time, there was NO organized resistance to gun control laws, as there really weren't any (national) till now. So, the people you are now taxing, oppressively, have NO POLITICAL VOICE.

Your test case is a couple of hillbilly moonshiners, who, when busted, weren't making moonshine, but did have a sawed off shotgun that hadn't been registered and had the tax paid. These guys are dirt poor, and couldn't have paid the tax anyway, particularly a $200 tax on a $5 shotgun.

Their defense (which was a sympathetic lawyer who worked pro bono on the case) was that the gun was a militia arm, and as such, should be exempt from the tax, 2nd Amendment, shall not be infringed, and all that.

The original trial judge agreed, ruled for the defense. The Fed appealed, all the way to the Supreme Court. When the case finally got there, things had changed with the defendants, and the lawyer, and literally, no one showed up to defend against the govt's case.

SO, the Supreme court essentially said "we have been shown no evidence" to refute the govt case, and ruled in favor of the Fed. And the NFA 34 has been the legal law of the land, ever since.

Now, I mentioned earlier how this was a TAX law. And it was enforced as a tax law, for over 30 years. The penalties of the law were for not paying the TAX, not for merely possessing the regulated arms.

If you were found with an unregistered, untaxed NFA item, you had two choices, you COULD go to court and fight it, (virtually a guaranteed loss, thanks to the Supreme Court ruling) and if you lost the penalties would apply.

OR, you could register the item, pay the tax, and keep it, no harm, no foul. The Fed allowed this, even encouraged it.

Until the late 1960s. (I want to say 68, but without looking it up, am unsure the exact year) The enforcement of the law changed. The Fed offered an amnesty period (6 months, I think) where you could register and pay the tax for any NFA items, without penalty. After that, if caught, you would be charged.

While there had been no change in the wording of the 34 law, the change in enforcement policies was huge. After the change, you could still register the gun and pay the tax but doing so did not get charges dropped. The effective change was that, instead of being punished for not paying the tax, you were punished for possession of an untaxed item, and faced charges whether you subsequently paid the tax, or not.

In 86, the Hughes amendment to the FOPA ended our ability add machineguns to the registry. ONLY machineguns that had previously been registered were allowed to be registered, and sold to the public.

SO, new made machine guns, and newly discovered older guns could NOT be legally registered for civilian ownership. Only the military, law enforcement organizations, and the licensed dealers who did business with them could have "post 86" machineguns. And that is still the situation today.

(If I've gotten any significant details wrong, please, correct me ;))
 
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Quote:
The NFA was intended to be a means of crime control.

Some of us believe otherwise...

Some of us believe that the NFA 34 was a "jobs" bill for all those T-men who suddenly found that they had nothing to enforce with the repeal of Prohibition.
Seriously?:rolleyes:
Who is "some of us"?:confused:

Revenuers had plenty of taxes to collect after Prohibition ended, just like they did before Prohibition. Since the sale of alcohol was prohibited during Prohibition, the Feds collected no tax $$$$.

As the Federal tax on NFA firearms was $200 in 1934, the intent was to make it financially impossible for most Americans to possess. A tax no one could afford to pay means the Feds collected nearly nothing from the NFA.

Calling it a "jobs bill" is silly.
 
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As the Federal tax on NFA firearms was $200 in 1934, the intent was to make it financially impossible for most Americans to possess

I suppose you could say that is what's happened with transferrable fully automatic firearms. We can legally own them here in Mississippi, and while the fees and paper work isn't a huge barrier, the price of a transferrable M16 (Pre 1986) is.
 
MY understanding that the $200 amount was arrived at because it was the cost of a new Thompson - is that correct?
 
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