Elian Stays!!!

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re: "And if Cuba under Castro isn't such a bad place to live then why are hundreds (or maybe thousands) of Cubans willing to risk their lives every year trying to escape in poorly made rafts?"

Any idea how many people risk life and limb to sneak into the US from Mexico? Or Chinese who pack themselves into freighters? Many, but far fewer than who stay home, because it is their country and their families are there.

People from all over the world would like to come here, legally or otherwise, and not just for political reasons, in fact, mainly for economic opportunity. What's your point?

Last post from me... we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited April 20, 2000).]
 
Sometimes it shames me to say that I am a Cuban American. My Mother says I live here now, I am a American. Not a Cuban. Cuba does not interest me, my interest are here in the United States of America. In the America I know, little 6 year old boy do not make life's decision. In fact, that type of decision is a direct threat to the American way of life. To my right to raise a child the way I see fit.

If the Cuban in Miami cared enough about their homeland, they would take up arms and go fight for what is rightfully theirs. There are plenty of strong men in south Florida, fully capable of taking that tiny island. It just takes lots of courage and not pander to the US government to sent its young men to fight for their(Cubans) freedom. What is left in Miami is a hollow shell of a people. Cowardace, aristocrocy and ignorance. All this holding a child hostage from his father.

Maybe, with a prayer, the seed of freedom will be planted in this little boy and feed others these seeds of freedom. He will grow up and fight for his right to be a free man in Cuba. It is the only true hope for that tiny island.

Cag, these are my friends here. They are not dark minded, ignorant or racist. They are just right. Since you live here now, why don't you behave like the rest of us, like a American.

Robert




[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited April 20, 2000).]
 
"If the Cuban in Miami cared about their homeland, they would take up arms and fight for what is theirs."

They did. They got betrayed by the U.S. government. Remember the Bay of Pigs?

Now, people have said the Cold war is over. That a communist Cuba is no threat to the U.S.... Enjoy it, in a few years, when we re-enact the Cuban missle crisis with Chinese missles! Because it's coming, I expect.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Am I to understand that we are going to remove all the children from Cuba because we don't like the way they do things over there. Have you looked at what happens to our kid's here in the U.S.A.. We live in the finest country in the world but we have our problems as well.
Plenty of kid's are growing up in Cuba and are turning out to be fine men. If the father is willing and able, and there is no threat to the boy other than a different way of life, he needs to be with his father.

How would you like the government to take your kid away because you spank (not beat) him for discipline.

Different situation but same result. It's not right.
Who are we to decide what the proper environment for kids to grow up in is. Our country has had some rough times as well. Living through the depression as a poor family would have been very undesireable but from that period we have some of the greatest leaders our country ever had.

Adversity produces strength of charector. Nothing is so bad with the daily living in Cuba that we have to take a child from his father.

The reason many are illegaly sneaking in to our country is because they can do crime here and get away with it. Not all, just many.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
Leedesert: There's a pretty substantial diference, don't you think, between going to Cuba to kidnap children, and taking a child who's ALREADY HERE, and sending him back? Not to mention the little business of whether this country is a dictatorship or not; Do the parties in this dispute get to argue their case in court, or does his slickness just rule by decree?

BTW, it probably WOULD be in our national interest to overthrow the Castro regime, and replace it with something less totalitarian. Unless we want to have Chinese missles aimed at us from 90 miles away. But I don't expect it to happen, as these days we only launch wars against people on the OTHER side of the planet.

I'm not even going to respond to the "because they can do crime here" bit; Xenophobia raises it's ugly head.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Covert Mission

You said “It's rationed because of shortages. Many of those shortages would disappear if trade sanctions were lifted, is my understanding.”

Last time I checked we were about the only country that still had sanctions against Cuba. The Cubans Trade with Canada, Britain, Germany France and most all of the other industrialized nations in the world. Are you telling me that it’s the lack of trade with the US that keeps Cuba in it present poverty stricken state and not the fact that Cuba has a centrally planned and controlled economy.

“So too has China been condemned….”
Not in the resolution passed within the last week in which Cuba was

“You don't think this has any connection to the tremendous influence Cuban-Americans have politically?”
No I don’t, I think it has to do with the fact that Uncle Fidel Nationalized every damn thing when he took over the country costing US Companies and Citizens 73 Billion dollars in lost assets. I think that law was a way to tweak Castro's nose. I think it has more to do with MONEY.

Lets clear the air here
Every one is milking this for their own agenda.

1. The anti Castro Cuban cause they have an AX to Grind against Castro.
2. The Liberals (President, J Reno and in congress et all) they want to Placate Castro and for once it allows them on the fathers side and to appear to say “its for the Children”
3. The Media, It sells papers and gets people to tune in
4. The percentage of the US Population who are tired of the story and basically say “send the kid back to any hell hole we are tired of the story don’t want to be bothered with it.
5. The Castro regime in Cuba who wants a victory for the revolution.
6. The Father who may have wanted to come here but is now in the middle on a short leash. Castro has the grandparents locked away in Cuba and the Father is never allowed out of their control in this country.
7. There are other agendas out there too.


I don’t know mine is yet. (heck everyone else seems to have one)
But somewhere in Miami there is a little boy who no one in the government that is trying to railroad him has even asked him what he wanted let alone talked to him.



[This message has been edited by Alan B (edited April 20, 2000).]
 
Robert, I'm an american. I'm behaving like it. It's called expressing myself. If you are what you say you are, then I would say that you are worse then they are. No matter how ashamed you are, I can only tell you, that you will always be what you are. What is a rose by any other name? A rose is a rose, is a rose, is a rose.etc.... You have roots, heritage and culture, which is something that you pass on down to your children, not just your last name, which I'm guessing, that you might have changed, or otherwise you have to bear the shame of a hispanic surname.

I don't want to see anyone loose their child. I want this to be resolved in the courts. They are experts in determinig what is best for this child. This is not the first time something like this happens. All the others had their day in court. Why not him? All the others have had no regrets that they defied their parents. This has happened to other Cubans, to Poles, Russians, and a few others.
It's obvious that the father is a victim himself. He is not in control. Castro is. Let the families hash it out. Reno, suggested that the families stay in a compound and they can go back & forth, and they refused because the Cuban government would not allow Elian's father to speak with his Miami family. What the heck! Even Castro's daughter has defected. He abducted his own son (Fidelito) from Mirta Balart, the mother. And I cannot begin to tell you how many children of people living here in the USA, that he is holding and keeping apart from their parents.
This kid will have a day in court. Brett, you have an open mind, and are definite up to speed. I'm glad that we have some people here that play fair game. Best of luck....Cag
 
I have never read more crap than that which was written by Chip Beck. Do you know that only 2% of the press is conservative. I guarantee you that Chip does not fall in that 2%. He's definetly harkin the tune of the liberals. How can he say that there is no political repression, when all the opposition is in prison? Anyone that expresses a view that's different than Castro's are put in jails. We know what we know by the people that have to live there, which are family, not from people that go for three days, like Chip. How stupid, the people from Miami, are the people that used to be the people from Cuba! You have the original wave of which the children are now reaching an older age, you have the Marielitos which were 125,000, that came in 1980,and you have close to 100,000 that have come in rafts in recent years, from the Guantamo folks to present. Everyone brings the same news, tells the same stories, no matter which wave they came in.

Roberto, seems like you judge how American you are by feeling shameful of what you were and still are. No matter what, the more shame you feel, doesn't make you any more American.

As for the guy that wants all the Cubans to get out after Castro falls, I'll tell you that the state of Florida could not handle the economic vacuum that would be created by your suggestion. Not many will probably end up going back and hope a few move right next door to your house!
Best of luck....Cag
 
Cag,

You are making it sound as though before Castro, life in Cuba was a vibrant democracy. At least Castro jails his opposition, Bastista killed and buried his. Both used terror to stay in power. One of the factors that keep Castro in power is the Cuban back in the island don't want to see the Bastistero's (Right-wing Aristocrats) back in power. That is exactly what the Cubans in Miami want. Why do you think the Cuban leaders in Miami do not want the US Gov. to talk to Cuba? They NO NOT want the Cuban population to succeed without them mastering the masses again. The only reason Cuban leader hate Castro is because it is not them holding the wip. "Emvidia" is what they have.

Robert
 
Robert

So since Bastista was a far right Tyrant and Castro is a far left tyrant the two some how balance out, so cuba should remain as it is? If Bastista was as efficient as you claim how did good ol Fidel slip through?

Since when did two wrongs make a right?

I think US treatment of Cuba has less to do with the Political power of the Anti Castro groups in FL as resentment of the Billions of dollars Castro stole when he Nationalized everything.

If the Anti Castro crowd was that politically powerful we would have knocked Castro out of power along time ago. Its not like it would be as hard as saving Kuwait, after all this is in our yard.
 
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From the CIA World Factbook listing on CUBA:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/cu.html

Background:
Fidel CASTRO led a rebel army to victory in 1959, and his guiding vision has defined Cuba's Communist revolution while his iron will has held the country together for more than four decades. CASTRO brought Cuba onto the world stage by inviting Soviet support in the 1960s, inciting revolutionary movements throughout Latin America and Africa in the 1970s, and sending his army to fight in Angola in the 1980s. At home, Havana provided Cubans with high levels of healthcare, education, and social security while suppressing the Roman Catholic Church and arresting political dissidents. Cuba is slowly recovering from severe economic recession following the withdrawal of former-Soviet subsidies, worth $4 billion-$6 billion per year, in 1990.

Economy—overview:
The state plays the primary role in the economy and controls practically all foreign trade. The government has undertaken several reforms in recent years to stem excess liquidity, increase labor incentives, and alleviate serious shortages of food, consumer goods, and services. The liberalized agricultural markets introduced in October 1994, at which state and private farmers sell above-quota production at unrestricted prices, have broadened legal consumption alternatives and reduced black market prices. Government efforts to lower subsidies to unprofitable enterprises and to shrink the money supply caused the semi-official exchange rate for the Cuban peso to move from a peak of 120 to the dollar in the summer of 1994 to 21 to the dollar by yearend 1998. New taxes introduced in 1996 helped drive down the
number of self-employed workers from 208,000 in January 1996 to 155,000 by July 1998. Havana announced in 1995 that GDP declined by 35% during 1989-93, the result of lost Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies. The drop in GDP apparently halted in 1994, when Cuba reported 0.7% growth, followed by increases of 2.5% in 1995 and 7.8% in 1996. Growth slowed again in 1997 and 1998 to 2.5% and 1.2% respectively. Export earnings declined 22% in 1998, to $1.4 billion, the result of lower sugar export volume and lower world prices for nickel and sugar. Import expenditures also fell 15% to $3.0 billion, in part due to lower world oil prices. Tourism and remittances play a key role in foreign currency earnings. Living standards for the average Cuban remain at a depressed level compared with 1990.

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 95.7%
male: 96.2%
female: 95.3% (1995 est.)
 
(banging the gavel)

*Cag, Robert, and Alan: if you want to debate Cuban politics anent Bastista and Castro, do it in a more appropriate forum and/or thread. This is about the kid, not dictators who are fighting over him.

Final warning. Don't make me call DC over here, capische?
 
How did Castro slip past Bautista?

* How did Khomeini slip past the Shah of Iran (who we put in place)?

* How did the Sandinistas slip past Somoza in Nicaragua (who we put in place)?

* How did the Communist Vietnamese slip past the regime we supported?

How about the "great" leaders we have more or less put in place (as the lesser of two evils) to fight communism around the world, such as : the Shah, Somoza, Marcos, Pinochet, Noriega, various sordid African strongmen, etc... feel free to add to the list. Our track record isn't exactly spotless, would you say? And I am NO friend of Communism (or its sympathizers), but some of our choices (and those of our allies) have wreaked havoc in the long-run.
 
Coinneach, From the moment you said to keep it cordial, I had not made any coment until now. Robert's the one that brought Batista into the picture. What I talked about Castro was all related to the kid. But I do tend to loose it when someone doesn't know what they are talking about. The things he said couldn't be any further from the truth. I'm not jealous of anyone. Why hell, I support my family here and one in Cuba. There's nothing there in Cuba, that I want except for the same kind of freedom and democracy for those people that we share here. I could defend against his coments, and even correct his distorted views on history, but I'll refrain for the sake of not getting kicked out of here, and keeping things friendly. Anyways, I for one am glad that the kid's going to have his day in court. I'll sum up how most feel in Miami with a quote from Barry Goldwater--1964 "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue". I don't think I need to tell you who's doing what. My sincere apology if I offended anyone by straying from the subject. Best of luck....Cag
 
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