Elevator

[Samurai]

Ahh, EXCELLENT! Joe's a Marine instructor!!! Joe: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get together this weekend with a friend, and try the "drop to the ground" technique against your icepick-grip training. Pick a partner who is "reasonably capable" at drawing (NOT someone that you would be grossly under-matched against). Start at arms-length, relaxed stance.

YOUR JOB is to come at him with a training knife, using your Marine Corps. trained techniques.
YOUR PARTNER'S JOB is to use his non-weapon hand to ENGAGE your knife (keep the knife at distance; it doesn't matter if he gets cut on the hand) WHILE he draws with his weapon hand. THEN, AFTER DRAWING, your partner will perform a backwards combat fall with his pistol in a high-ready position (close to the chest, as discussed above). Your partner will squeeze off as many trigger pulls as he can, before you can get to his torso with the knife (stop at 8 trigger pulls).

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW:

1. Could the guy get his gun out before you made it to the torso?
2. Could the guy get any shots off before you made it to the torso?
3. Did he get off all 8 shots?
4. Were you able to get in a cut to the radial artery on the non-weapon hand? How about the weapon hand?

Try this, and let us know how it works.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Samurai, I'm going to try it out this weekend with my father, this guy:

http://www.grandmasterswingchun.com/drnelson.htm


To be clear, I am already familiar with this technique (or a variation of it). It involves falling backwards, into a defensive shooting posture like you describe. Everything you are saying I agree with, concerning the validity of this technique.

My concern, however, is its reliable application in an elevator (or bathroom stall, other confined space). I already know for a fact that a similar technique, a controlled fall backwards- in a fairly open space- can work as an EXCELLENT position to shoot from in survival mode.

 

[David Armstrong]

TANZER: Respectfully, David (I've always respected your opnions) I'm not going down without a fight.
---SNIP---
but I don't see doing nothing as a viable option.

Fair enough, and I’m not suggesting one should go down without a fight. I’m suggesting that one avoid getting into a fight. I don’t consider that “doing nothing”, BTW. My philosophy is that your mind is your best weapon, and if you can use your mind to figure out the response that does the least damage to you and your resources ordinarily that is what you should do. Trying to pull your gun and challenge him is the most likely response to increase the danger for you, IMO. In the huge majority of incidents unless the BG starts things out by significantly harming you, you will not be significantly harmed if you go along with them and don’t challenge/fight with them. I realize that does not address the second element of your scenario where you have vanquished the foe, but IME most folks won’t be able to make it to that stage.

NEWERGUY: I'm still of the mind that it's better to get robbed of some case and credit cards than to be killed, stabed, or arrested for killing a robber. A lot of times cooperating is the best stratagy.

Exactly. If this is a robbery the BG wants your stuff, not you. If the BG wants you, in this space you'll probably never see it coming until after it's done.

SAMURAI: I know. Like I said before, this sounds REALLY crazy.

Not really, and that is why I was hoping you would do some follow-up. What you are advocating is very similar to a technique we taught at the police academy for some circumstances.

 

[nbk2000]

What if, instead of the mugger being in the car with you, he's waiting for you to come out of it...after his crimey unloaded a CS/OC fogger into the car as the doors were closing.

Figure 15 seconds minimum before you could get off at the very next floor (the one he's waiting on) after breathing a highly concentrated dosage of CS/OC.

Or he could unload as he's walking out of the elevator he was on with you, blocking the door from closing with a dropped briefcase or such.

I don't think Gun-Fu is going to help you very much.

The whole idea of preparing for someone mugging you on an elevator seems rather paranoid (though it has happened) as how often are you in an elevator, for what duration of time, and how much more likely are you to be killed by a mechanical failure of the elevator itself than by any muggers lying in wait therein?

Think of the situation from the criminals POV.

He's trying to get your money. So he puts himself in a tight space with you, not knowing if you're armed, and with no possibility of escape for him, and with the potential for an unknown number of witnesses to intrude in upon the crime by the simple act of pushing an elevator call button.

Doesn't sound very smart to me.

Now, if he (or his crimey) had control of the elevator...you'd be in some serious cow biscuits, as they could simply pull you down into the basement.

Or what about the fire-safety override that brings all cars down to ground level? No stops.

Point being, if someone puts enough thought into doing the job, you're done for and no amount of elevator Gun-Fu is going to save you.

Developing a strong set of general skills will serve a person much better than trying to develop a highly specialized skill (anti-elevator-mugger-Fu) that you're very likely to never need.

The only exception I can see to this would be if you're an elevator operator (are there still any left?) who's job entails a 40 hour week in an elevator.