Elevator

T

Tanzer

New member
I'm not trying to make this into scenario #2,354,802, but I have a question; We've been all over the "shoot or run" "cover" and countless offsprings of scenarios dealing with conduct before, during and after a perp does the BG routine.

Let's throw out the "are you really in danger?" aspect just to narrow it down, and let's disregard the "why were you in that, aren't you aware?" deal because like it or not, even in condition yellow, we can't avoid every single potentiality.

You are in say, an elevator or similar situation where flight is not an option, at least for a minute or so. A true BG pulls a knife or brass knuckles etc (the situation if he gets the jump on you with a gun is too obvious). You have your weapon, but no cuffs, because you are not a LEO. You are the only two there, and he's big enough that even if you subdue him, you can't just sit on him, and you're not a blackbelt, or too long in the tooth to use twenty year old training (I hate to be so narrow, but I don't want to leave it open to things like; hook kick, roundhouse, then full Nelson).

Let's even bring it to the point where you have properly brandished your gun, you are confident and steady. He has now dropped his knife, but is looking around the elevator - looking at the control box, etc. Of course, if you block the box, your back is now to the door. Going for your cell phone in such close quarters might be dangerous.

It takes time to do the "on your knees, lay down......palms up" deal. You could have him spread eagle on the side wall - whatever, but in ten more long seconds the door will open and you'll be in the lobby or dining room.

Any thoughts? I think it's a valid possibility, not just an exercise in discourse.
 
Closed confines of an elevator and he pulls a kinfe or BN on me, he dies if I can get to my gun.

Too many bad variables.

The doors open and someone...anyone...a security guard....sees you holding a gun on the perp and takes you out. Then the BG takes both of you out.

No thanks, dead perp and I have some ringing ears.

New
 
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Better hope he has a serious aversion to being shot. At that range he has plenty of time and probably adrenalin to take you out even if you do shoot him.
 
Hornett - great clip! :D

I have to agree with newarcher for the most part. In an elevator, if some guy draws a knife on me and threatens me with it, I have no retreat options and few viable defense options. He gets shot. When the elevator stops at a floor, I'll stop the elevator and call for help. Hopefully it's a video-monitored elevator where the threat and defense can be clearly seen.

Where this gets scary is if there are two or three others in the elevator that the BG wants to rob too.
 
It's obviously a bad situation. From the perp's point of view, sticking you once or twice would be his best diversion/escape plan. You can figure you're in deep in this situation. It's doubtful the SOB will simply exit the elevator with your wallet and walk away. This has happened, though I don't know of anyone having defended themselves. It's kind of a no-win deal.

Hornet, EEYEE... tventy yeas ago...vhat I voulda dun to da guy...but it ain't happening nowadays.
 
Now that is one hard situation. If he drops the knife his threat level just went down to almost zero, you got a gun on him he has no choice but to do as you say or get shot. On the knees facing the wall hands up

A few years ago, was a hooker used this ploy. She would get in the car, wait until you were in a secluded spot, pull a knife and take all your goods, made you get out of the car and drove off in the car. She was caught tho. Not one guy put up a fight.
 
Sigh. Give the BG what he wants, assuming it is property. If the BG wants to kill you, you're already in more trouble than you can stand if he is that far ahead of your curve. Then get off at the next floor, or let him get off at the next floor, whichever is appropriate.
 
Sigh. Give the BG what he wants, assuming it is property. If the BG wants to kill you, you're already in more trouble than you can stand if he is that far ahead of your curve. Then get off at the next floor, or let him get off at the next floor, whichever is appropriate.
Click to expand...

But what if what he wants is your wallet and your life? :eek:

With the size of most elevators, he can wait until he feels the elevator slow for a floor, stab you, clean his knife off on you and be ready to exit the elevator the moment the doors open. Depending on the type of building (office, apartment, hotel, etc) he may force you to go with him and stab you in a stairwell instead.

Sure, give him what he wants... rely on his "mercy". :(
 
Typical elevator is what, eight feet max in any dimension?

He already has his weapon out.

You have to draw and fire in less time than it'd take him to cross the six foot gap (at most) between the two of you, when he already has his drawn?

No way.

And maybe the guy isn't totally stupid. Maybe he's wearing a vest, and choose a knife instead of a gun, because he didn't want to blow his ears out or draw attention with a gunshot. Which doesn't preclude him also having a gun.

Say you manage to cover your draw so he doesn't see it. You're now armed.

You pull the trigger on his COM. He lunges and drives the knife into your throat as his vest absorbs the first few rounds from your gun. You shift aim and blow off his head.

'I won!' you gurgle through your ruined throat as you drown to death on your own blood.

:)

Even without a vest, he's so close he can easily kill you before he dies from your bullets.

Remember, all draws are a loss to the defender.

Oh, and knives don't jam or need reloading.

And what about his crimey? Might have one waiting at the next floor for him, as backup, in case anyone put up a fight.
 
If we are even in the reactionary curve meaning my awareness has pegged him as a threat and we are drawing even I will shoot in the classic handgun defense of knife attack. One arm out as bait/defense for the knife while the gun hand is tucked into the body real tight in gun retention mode. Shooting will be super rapid fire. It will be like rushing a machine gun nest for the bad guy LOL.

If he gets the drop, unless he starts carving, I'm cooperating.
 
From nbk2000:
'I won!' you gurgle through your ruined throat as you drown to death on your own blood.
Click to expand...
It's a sad fact of life....sometimes the good guy dies.
But it's still better to take the bad guy out with you as you go.

And giving the BG what he wants is certainly no guarantee than he will not kill you anyway.
How many times have we seen a person comply, only to be killed anyway?

Besides, in a senario like this one, what are the odds that the guy is just a common mugger?
In an elevator with balistic armor???
 
If he gets the drop, unless he starts carving, I'm cooperating
Click to expand...

Having been fortunate enough until now to not be in this situation I would be hard pressed to say exactly what I would do..hopefully a cool demeanor would prevail on my part.

However like creature I completely agree with the above quotation
 
Good question, Tanzer!!!

In an elevator, your primary concern is being disarmed. You have to exercise every available option to avoid allowing the bad guy to rush for your gun.

Here, the appropriate course of action is to sit down, on the floor, with your back up against the corner, curled into a fetal ball. (Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Try it! It works!) Hold your pistol in close, near your chest, and extend your non-weapon hand out in front of you. From this position, you are actually in a VERY good defensive position. The bad guy should not be able to land a kick to your torso or groin, because your knees and shins are curled up in front of you. (Besides, if he tries it, shoot him!) If the bad guy charges at you, he will have to bend over to get at you. (This will throw him completely off balance, and take away most of his body strength.) Because your non-weapon arm is extended, you will keep him at an arms-length distance, so he will be at a disadvantage for grappling or disarming you.

I know. In this situation, curling up into a ball in the corner seems like the LAST thing you should do. But, try it with a friend (unloaded guns only, please). You will find that a bad guy will be at an EXTREME disadvantage here.

"But, Samurai!," you say. "How can we expect to shoot the bad guy, but avoid our outreached non-weapon hand?" Hey, this isn't a game of looking pretty. This is a game of survival. Would it suck to shoot your own non-weapon hand? Sure! Is it an acceptable loss, in the face of losing your weapon to the bad guy? Most certainly! With a shot in the hand, you can go to the hospital for treatment. But, if the bad guy gets your gun, you won't be going to the hospital. You'll be going to the morgue!

So, remember: Curl into a ball, back to the corner. Non-weapon hand extended out in front of you, weapon in close to your chest. And, tell the perp that you'll shoot him if he comes any closer, reaches for his weapon, etc... (Be prepared to follow up on this, if needs be!)
 
Its like playing the odds. If the odds are in my favor for getting out of the situation safely by drawing and firing so be it. If the odds suggest that compliance is the way to go so be it.

Its all about doing what you feel is best at the moment given the situation. Sometimes you can just tell by someones look that they mean to harm you. In a case like that position in the reactionary curve is irrelevant. Your odds of survival can only increase through resistance. Become as violent as possible as fast as possible.

When facing someone with a knife (especially in an elevator) prepare your mind for being cut.
 
Samurai, just curious. Your course of action seems to be the best defensive option for this kind of situation, if one chooses not to cooperate.

Does your suggestion change a bit depending on how you are carrying your weapon? Let's say pocket or ankle as opposed to IWB or OWB? Are there modifications in tactics or positioning?
 
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