Elbows bent or elbows locked. Which and why?

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I've been looking at stance photos and had some unsolicited (although not unwelcome) advice at IPSC matches.

I usually shoot with my elbows locked out in front of me and a fairly symmetrical stance, so I guess that is something akin to the isoceles stance that I've read about. Having said that I've never had any formal training. Some shooters at competitions advised me not to lock my elbows, thus helping absorb recoil.

On the other hand, I've seen countless videos and stills of shooters with the elbows well and truly locked straight, presumably to aid with a steady aim and rigid frame to hold the gun steady.

So which and why?
 
Locked your whole body helps absorb the recoil. Unlocked it's just your arms. And you'll still have guys arguing over it.
Mind you, the recoil of most pistols, even with 'major' game player loads, is negligible anyway.
Shooting game players are more concerned with shot recovery time.
"...rigid frame..." Firm, not rigid.
 
The answer is....wait for it......
It all depends - on what works for you.
Personally I prefer a slight downward bend of the elbows, for the reason mentioned - recoil.
I also use my shoulders to assist with the weight of my arms and gun.
The only way to decide is to try various techniques.
You may find that no single method suffices, depending (there we go again) on the situation.
 
What is critical for consistency is repeatability. Having your arms fully extended eliminates guess work. My dominant arm is fully extended, with just enough flex in the other to create tension. That works well for me, but I do not shoot competition.
 
g.willikers opined:
The answer is....wait for it......
It all depends - on what works for you.
Click to expand...

BINGO!

If you want to see a more public display of 'how it's supposed to work', just look at golf swings, where we've seen several different eras in 'what's right' over the past 60 years, which proves historically one size / time doesn't fit all.

Same with pistol stances, and any other sport form.
 
I am 5' 6" and overweight and not to mention that I have short arms for my heigth. I shoot with my elbows bent and strong arm pressed against my body. This gives me a very steady hold for off hand shooting with both slow and fast fire. Pivoting at my center of effort I move my gun a much less distance to get on target than if I lock my elbows.
 
Unless I'm shooting really close and loose, I will lock out. It's also way better for charging the next array. That's why all the USPSA Grand Masters use it. If you don't shoot competition, it may not make sense to you.

image37140.jpg
 
Elbows bent or elbows locked. Which and why?

Elbows locked in the straight forward isosceles stance, non-dominant arm slightly bent in the Weaver stance.
 
^^^^^^^ this for action shooting (9x45 pic). Frankly it's best for bullseye too (but with one arm). I can't really think of a scenario where not locking out is more stable, except for a hand to hand fight involving a belly gun. Bending the arms is NOT good for recoil management because it makes it much harder to get back on target, and it is less stable. If you are bending arms to manage recoil, you aren't leaning into your shot properly or gripping the gun correctly.
 
I've been experimenting with with stance and grip a lot over the last couple of months. I have found that when I am locked out with at least one arm and have both hands solidly on the grip in a thumbs forward grip, I am a good bit faster. I have resisted changing, but so many of the best shooters advocate this grip I had to give it a fair chance. It still isn't as natural as I would like, but I am much more solid on target when shooting quickly.
 
Are you "elbows locked" proponents sure you're really and completely locking out (when shooting 2-handed)? There's a big difference between locked and nearly locked. The former takes much more effort, is more constrictive, and isn't nearly as natural a stance. On top of that, it's the nature of the isosceles that elbows can appear locked when they're only nearly locked. I'm in the "nearly locked" camp, even if it appears I fully lock out.

TomIDPA2012Worlds.jpg


IDPAindoorNats2012.jpg
 
locked etc...

Agree, mine are "nearly" locked. BUT everyone is different and what works for me, may not for you. Shoot the "style" your comfortable with. OY practice what "works" the same way, over and over....consistently.... When your called to use your weapon everything will "automatically" kick in!! Stance, draw "presentation", safety down.(..if there is one). I would say aim, but I'm a proponent of point shooting, the weapon is one with the arm\ sight picture

I shoot body square to target, " cup and saucer" grip.


Artillery King Of The Battlefield
 
Perhaps I should have said, straight and bent, as opposed to locked or bent.

I tried out what you described, Mr Borland, and indeed, mine are not locked to that degree as it does indeed require more muscle strain to keep it there. The elbows are straight, though.

On a side note, aren't those two shooters pictured risking a fingertip removal with thumbs so close to the cylinder gap?
 
Pond said:
On a side note, aren't those two shooters pictured risking a fingertip removal with thumbs so close to the cylinder gap?
Click to expand...

heh...I thought that might come up. :rolleyes:

To keep from derailing the thread, I'll just say that the thumbs-forward grip on a revolver hasn't been a problem when shooting standard (i.e. non-magnum) ammunition. When seen in the dark, the flash is well above the thumb. All bets are off when shooting magnums, though, and the thumb gets moved accordingly. :cool:
 
Bending the arms is NOT good for recoil management because it makes it much harder to get back on target, and it is less stable.
Click to expand...
Well, that depends. :)
With old, tired joints, especially the elbows, that may be no longer true.

What works best for me for two handed grip is:
Elbows aimed downward and pulled back from fully extended until the weight of arms and gun can be felt on the stronger shoulders.
The grip used is both thumbs pointed at the target, one behind the other at the first joint.
Both hands pushing forward, rather than the push-pull isometric method.
The support hand providing most of the grip strength, leaving the trigger finger free to move - (most important).
And that all keeps the muzzle very much on target from shot to shot, fast or slow.

The front sight pops up and right back down on target.
And, surprisingly, how high the muzzle goes doesn't seem to make much difference in the speed of the second shot, as long as it comes straight back down.
And with this method, for me at least, it indeed does.
 
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Certainly for multiple shots the gun should Not move in the hands !!!
I can do that with locked elbows for 9mm,40, 45, but not 44 mag. For my 44 mag I slightly bend the elbows and the bend increases as the gun is fired like a shock absorber .The gun then doesn't move in my hand and putting the gun back on target is easy and accurate.
Don't blindly adopt a style . Test different styles picking the one that works for YOU !
 
Check out Robby Letham (aka "The Great One"). Elbows are not straight and locked, but nearly so. Grip is firm and neutral. He doesn't try to overpower and prevent muzzle rise, but his neutral grip allows the front sight to return to its starting place on its own after each shot. This is (and small variations are) the grip & stance most commonly used and seen among top shooters because it works.

hg_turning_pro_shooter_a.jpg
 
While I agree that everyone should find what works best for them, Mr. Borland's point that fully extended or locked elbows is neither easy nor comfortable to achieve with a two-handed grip is, for me, central to the discussion. We aren't really talking about whether to bend our elbows, but rather how much to bend our elbows. Absorbing recoil by increasing the flexion of our elbows, no matter how slightly, means the pistol is moving backward and reducing muzzle rise. If your elbows are really and truly locked, allowing no flexion at all, recoil can only do two things, neither desirable: move your shoulders and upper torso back, or flip the muzzle up.
 
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