Effective Range

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PreserveFreedom

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Does anyone know the effective range of 223 Rem from a blot rifle? I have been toying with the idea of building a sniper rifle and wanna stay with calibers I already own, but I wanna be able to reach out a bit. I might end up moving to 30 cal.
 
Effective range for what? Are you talking about paper targets, prarie dogs, or something larger? Effective range is where the bullet still has enough energy to do it's job at that distance.
 
Jury is still out

The USAMTU has been playing with the M16 and developing it for long range shooting. It's been found that with the longer, heavier bullets, the .223 can carry out to 800 yards (and some are pushing for 1k). While I'm unsure whether the USAMTU does it, some shooters have modified their magazines by cutting away a portion of the front, thereby allowing longer bullets to be used.

On a bolt gun, you won't be limited by detachable magazines and conceivably, since you can always load rounds individually into the receiver, you can easily use those longer (70 gr plus) bullets. Don't ask me whether there's any residual energy left at long range for anything other than paper punching.
 
When I was "in," Army doctrine specified the maximum effective range of the M16A1 as 460 meters, IIRC. That was with M193 55 grain ball. Although I would not want to be hit by ANYTHING I would not be unduly concerned at being shot at by an AR15 more than 500 yards away. YMMV

For a reference, at 200 yds a man appears about the size (in height) of your front sight. At 300 yards, he is about 1/2 the size of your front sight. It only gets worse as the distance increases. Plus, at 460 meters the bullet is fairly spent.

Of course if you go to 80 grain VLD bullets, you may have something there.:cool:
 
Wind will always be a problem for paper-punching at long distance. The bigger the caliber, the heavier the bullet--and less effect from wind...

For hunting purposes where a clean kill is the absolute moral imperative, I'd call a .223 a 200-yard coyote gun. For those of higher skill levels and good self-discipline as to when to shoot or not shoot, the range can be longer, and animals of larger size can be taken.

Regardless of skill level, ain't nobody hunting mule deer out of my camp with a .223. Period. End of discussion.

:), Art
 
I agree with Art totally. If you're going to build a rifle up from scratch it'll cost you about the same for a larger caliber like a 308 Win.

Turk
 
It still goes back to the question of "what do you mean by effective?" Hitting targets? If that's all, the AR has proven itself in competition at 600 yards with the use of 80 grain Match Kings and even heavier. However, due to bullet design, they have to be loaded longer than the mag allows. There are two types of magazine that allow for this, butavailability has been spotty. Competitors most often just load from the ejector port for this distance, and use a bullet with a shorter bearing surface for the shorter range loads. The ARs are definately beginning to do well at 1000 yards as well.

Do you mean to kill a "larger than coyote" animal with one well blaced round? In that case, the .308 will give more room for shooter error. An instant kill shot with a .223 at 600 yards would have to be placed on the head or right on the heart, I'd think, but a .308 would probably have better chance of killing with a less-than-accurate shot.

However, rarely does an expanding bullet have the long range accuracy of any of the match bullets, and match bullets are not designed to expand.
 
If I were building a 400-500 yard rifle, I don't think I'd pick the .223, even though I love the round. I like the .308 for medium ranges, and it'll have a lot more energy when it arrives 400 yards away. If you want to shoot effectively at really long ranges, like 1000 yards, consider the .50 BMG. It'll arrive with enough energy to still be effective.
 
There are a lot of rounds that will be "effective" on tactical targets...assuming you mean kill shots. A .50 BMG would be effective on hard targets at 1000 yards, but it is hardly necessary for thin skinned, "larger than coyote" targets at 1000.
 
Gee, did I start a new size with the "something larger phrase?" Wait untill the african hunters hear about this!
 
With all due respect Shooting past 500yds with a .223 isn't going to be fun unless you actually have ZERO WIND. I've made hits out to 500yds with 62gr and 69gr. At that range a 5.56 round is about a 22LR+P. They have used 22LR for sniping so a good bolt action could piss the BG's off. I doubt your going to penetrate a standard issue flak jacket or Kevlar helmet past 500yds anyway. M855 can do it at that range but good luck trying to hit a Helmet Size target. If you end up making it work let me know!!!!
 
Soda Pop, actually, after you've fired a few rounds under conditions and have been able to observe the impact area, it's not so bad...but hitting on the first shot? I'd call it close to impossible with just about any standard rifle cartridge. and yes, with the .223, definately close to impossible!

Basically, you look for the "constant" be it a 15 Mph wind from 7 o'clock, or a lull of 5 Mph. That's when you shoot. When the wind picks up, you stop. Again, hitting on the first shot? No way.


Fire for effect!
 
You should see the range I go shooting at Steve. There is a terrible crosswind. It blows from the right out to 300yds, and at 400yds, the range opens up past these trees, and then whips around from the left to right. Its really bizzare. A total pain in the arse with light bullets.

Did you ever try those light bullets out of your M1A?
 
another thing that affects wind drift at longer ranges is the bullet's path. Lobbing a .223 out past 600 is just that, lobbing.. I think that a .308 is somewhere around 25 feet above the POA at its maximum ordinate when shooting at 1000yds.. so I cant imagine how high a .223 would be off the ground when shooting way out there.. and anyone who knows can tell you that wind up high aint nice... go to your local range one day and pop smoke... it gets wild up high and its hard to see mirage, etc...

I have to disagree with the statement about making first shot hits. This is a civil disagreement. Through my experience in sniper school and while hunting, it has been absolutely imparitive to make the first shot a good one.
 
460 meters?

As a former Marine, I'd have to take exception to the 460 meters and the zero wind comments. We were expected to make regular hits on man sized targets at 500 meters (at least in San Diego, the Parris Island guys range was still in yards). That was with the M16A1's and 55 grain bullets.
 
What do you mean by "effective"?

About all the law enforcement snipers and counter-snipers have gone to .308 Winchester caliber. Experience has shown the .223 sniper guns not as "effective".

Please note this is regarding sniper rifles, not kicking in door guns.

Also note the average "law enforcement sniper" shot is less than 100 yards in these United States.

Draw your own conclusions. You're a big kid.
 
Well effective range depends on many factors. One really important one if the person doing the firing. If you can not do your part, it doesnt matter what rifle, ammo you have.
 
If I have the time tonight, I'll run some numbers for you guys through Quickload. I think you'll be surprised that the .308 is blown quite a bit itself at long distance, especially when the wind contacts the bullet early in it's path or along the entire time of travel. I'll also plot the arc of flight for both rounds. I thn you might all be surprised with the results. The .308 is obviously the better killing round, no one's arguing that, but it's not magic. It does not defy the wind.

I'll use the following rounds and loads for my Quickload plots:

Sierra 168gr. HPBT Matchking, 41.5 gr IMR 4895, 2750 fps.

Sierra 80Gr. HPBT Matchking, 22 gr. IMR 4895, 2700 fps.

Now, I'm not insinuating that the .308 will blow around as much as the .223 Nobody go ballistic on this, ok (pn intended!)

I just want to show that the .223 is not as bad as folks think, as far as drift and elevation. (As long as the right bullets are used).

Bear with me on this, and let me work this up.

We here at TFL have a habit of string a guy up when he has an oddball direction to go in...just 'cause I'm not popular, don't mean I like gettin strung up. Like I said, gimme a night, and I'll have the results.

Oh, and _YO_YO_, I've scored quite well on 600 yard targets in a 20-25 Mph wind. That kind of wind isn't unreal at our local HP range in Eastern Colorado. Like I said before, you just have to either, #1 be a master at reading wind and dial it in perfectly the first time or. #2 dial it in as best you can, then fire for effect and adjust. Your wind will have a constant, no matter how short, You have to look for it, and be ready to shoot when the constant hits. It's the only good way to do it. Fishtailing wind is a PITA.

I think it would take a LOT of practice in order to hit with a .308 or .223 at 600 yards or better, in a heavy wind. I know that's the military sniper way, and that's certainly commendable, but it's hard for regular Joe's to get enought practice to get to that level.
 
From my understanding the M855 round and the Standard Nato 7.62 round have virtually the same ballistic path. Energy is the difference. And I'm sure the heavier round will have a tighter group.
 
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