Effective Fighting Distance Practice?

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Long range shots help improve the shooter's fundamentals as already mentioned. They are not so noticeable when shooting at 15 or 20 feet. I would suggest they practice out to 25 yds (75 feet) and certainly 15 yds (45 ft) to 20 yds (60 feet).

First choice is always to escape and not shoot.
 
Standing on a static range with my HK P30L or HK45 I can hit a figure 12 target out to 25M around 95% og the time.
When I do practice at 50M with the same pistols my hit percentage drops down to 30% assuming I am drawing and firing at a normal rate.
If I slow down and take careful aim it goes up to 60% or so.
Now would you stand there in a duel with someone 50M away who may be equipped with a rifle?
Where will the other 40% of my rounds go?

I have shot a 4-1/2" group at 50M with a Springfield Armory 6" Longslide with target sights. Is that something that someone will normally wear concealed?
 
Im not advocating taking 50 yard shots in a crowded venue at a whim, or as a normal response. Evey instance is its own critter and is dealt with as it unfolds and expands. Who knows what youll do. You certainly wont until you do.

What I was referring to, was something like what went on in Paris, or San Bernardino, etc., where you may have to fight for your life, and those around you, like it or dont. I personally believe you do have a responsibility in a case like that, if you have the means to stop it. Im not saying that to be macho or a tough guy, simply as what I believe. It applies in any situation for that matter. Would you stand there and do nothing? Just run away? Sorry, I guess I was brought up differently, and in a different era.

You always hear how if most everyone was armed, there would be little crime. Yet, as soon as you get down to brass tacks, many will tell you you have no duty to do anything, and tell you to run away. That youll "get in trouble", or worse. If thats the case, maybe those who feel that way, should just leave their gun at home, so it wont be a bother, and they wont have to worry about it.

I personally believe if you carry a gun, you are responsible to be proficient with it, and to do so to the best of your ability. That usually means pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone in practice, and practicing regularly. Shooting at longer ranges is part of that. All manner of things are part of that. Yet what percentage of gun carriers do you suppose, could complete even a basic police course with a passing score, with what they choose to carry every day? Could you? Much of what I see people carry and suggest or insist is all you need to carry, would be tough to get you past the ten yard mark, and thats with deliberate slow fire. Forget about anything realistic.

I would hope that if someone I cared for, were to be unfortunate enough to be caught up in something like the above, that someone were there, who could do so, would have the courage to step up and do something to stop it. From the current trend of advice in the threads you read around here, and a few other places, that doesnt seem likely occurrence.
 
practice

Prioritize your training. First practice for the most likely scenarios, and then practice for the worst case scenarios (within reason)

The FBI statistics that are often quoted are from the Law Enforcement Officers Killed (LEOKA) summary every years. They don't show ALL police shootings, just the incidents were the cops were killed.

Surprisingly, there is NO national data base on all police involved shootings. Individual departments may have one for incidents involving their personnel, but there is at this time nobody keeping that information on the national level. (I know, that's bizarre . . . )

Still, the FBI annual report, and NYPD's SOP 9 annual report both contain some pretty good information, and the general indicators (situation in hours of darkness, 7 yards distance or less, 40% of incidents involve multiple adversaries) are probably roughly applicable for self defense shootings involving the armed citizen as well.

And, as 1-DAB noted above about the benefits of shooting in competition "having to shoot unknown stages makes you practice for whatever may come up, and after some practice and competition, you know what you can do."
 
There is nothing wrong with good practice at longer distances. I do it. And while your buddy, g.w., feels it is unnecessary, he is probably right from a statistical sense. There are exceptions, but day in and day out, at what distances do most conflicts occur? They are exceptionally short range.

I had a buddy that was very much into long range practice, regular work out to 200 yards with a pistol and out to 400 on occasion. Why? He wanted "to be able to shoot them before they had a chance" to shoot him. Cool.

His first (only?) armed encounter went poorly. He got into a fight with an employee who drew down on him. Having been to all the gun schools, he attempted to disarm the employee who never lost control of his own gun, wrapped up my buddy and picked the gun my my buddy's holster. Fortunately, the employee never fired.

My point is that practicing for extremely rare encounters may make you sleep better, but given how unlikely it is to happen, being an expert first at short range is a much more practical ideal.
 
Hey, as someone who used to post here once said...."The scenario you get, isnt likely going to be the scenario you always win in your mind".

I often wonder if not practicing for things not likely (according to the usually touted statistics) to be encountered, isnt just an excuse for not practicing for something, one isnt good at. Which is the whole point of practice anyway, isnt it? To get better at things youre weak and/or lacking in.

Close range, long range, it really doesn't matter, most I see and know, dont practice the least bit realistically anyway, and many dont carry a realistic gun to boot. I guess everything likely to be encountered that needs solved, can be done with an LCP, a 5 shot J frame, or a NAA .22, so why bother with anything other than slow fire at a static 25 yard bullseye target at 7 yards in getting ready for it?

If you'd like some good/alternative reading/discussion on things like this, wander on over to Gabe Suarez's "Warrior Talk". They arent afraid to assess and address issues that tend to be taboo or looked down upon here, and discuss it frankly, and openly. Politically Correct they aint, and its very refreshing.
 
I shoot at 25 and 50 with my CCW guns. Not that I expect to ever get in a long range gunfight (or any gunfight for that matter) but really to build confidence and refine skills.

At longer ranges your errors are magnified to the point you can really see them. Same reason I shoot 90-95 yards with a bow. Get good far and close is easy.

Shoot 50, both weaver and bulseye (One handed)
 
As an added note:
A confrontation between a mad rifleman, (who was shooting up a base hospital), and a very brave military policeman ended well with two accurately placed pistol shots - from 75 yards.
The same distance shot that saved Bill Hickok's young life and allowed him to live to be a legend.
Disregarding, of course, the shot that ended that life was fired from mere inches away.
The point being there's no way to know what level of skill will be needed, and the better prepared we are the more likely we are to succeed.
True for everything in life, come to think.
 
The advisability of taking a 50-75 yard shot is decided in the split seconds before doing it. Having that ability takes nothing away from your CQB skills.
 
AK you make a valid point that if I am in a situation requiring long-range firepower while carrying my LCP I will be at a disadvantage. You are also right that carrying a concealed weapon requires us to have the training to be proficient with our weapon and understand our responsibilities and limitations in a self-defense situation.

It is in defining what those responsibilities and limitations are that thinking people can disagree. Once I get past the superior and condescending tone of your words, I understand that you take your responsibility to defend yourself and others seriously. I respect that and think most here do. Your judgement of those of us who advocate extreme caution before jumping into a gunfight is unfair in my opinion. Most of us take our moral, and ethical responsibilities very seriously. We also understand that as civilians we have legal and tactical limitations that make being a heroic public defender more complicated than you are willing to concede.
 
Guys, I carry a 642 or an LC9, 50 yards ain't gonna happen. I do practice 25 yd body shots tho. Most practice is 5 to 15 yds. If youare 50yds away you should be able to escape.
 
I think the last time I qualed at 50 yards was with a colt 45 back in 1979. The results for all of us were pretty bad. Of course the army qualified the MP's just once a year back then. I would expect today they have better everything going for them.
 
We also understand that as civilians we have legal and tactical limitations that make being a heroic public defender more complicated than you are willing to concede.
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Contrary to what you may think, I in no way want to be the "heroic public defender". Farther from it than you could ever imagine. Im simply saying, that you may be called on to do so, whether you like it or not. Sometimes, as much as you hate it, and know youll probably regret it, you just have to cowboy up.

Of course, if youre of the opinion that youre not capable, or limited in doing so, by all means, do what you think right.

Im not trying to be superior and condescending in tone either, and if you take it that way, I suppose that just is what it is. I tend to be more direct or blunt than PC. It seems to me too, that many of the conversations here become limited, because of the PC (and mimicking) attitude many seem to have, and especially if anything perceived as controversial is brought up. For some reason, it appears longer range shooting falls into that group.

I do get annoyed when Im told I have to follow someone elses ROE, especially when they choose to limit themselves in their thinking, equipment, and skills, and somehow thats supposed to attach itself to me. I do take my responsibilities very seriously, and try to be as close to the top of my game as possible. Always have. I would think that would be a goal for anyone carrying a gun on a daily basis, but I do know thats not always the case. For many, just having it seems to be all it takes. First rule is to have a gun, right? Thats a scary thought sometimes.

Dont take my tone wrong, if you dont practice long range shooting, arent capable of it, and then proclaim its irresponsible to do so, simply because its out of your skill set. Same goes for close range dynamic shooting, or anything in between for that matter. Dont take offense if I bring it up, and it touches a nerve. Im simply pointing out that if its an issue, its something to work on and strive to achieve.

Im also in no way advocating doing anything, just because you can. Every situation is its own critter and gets its own response. But...., in the circumstance where you are capable and do have the means, I do believe you do have a responsibility to act.
 
Most self-defense shots are very short. Some are longer.

If you want to have a chance of making the longer ones you'd better practice for them.

If you want to have a good chance of making the very short ones, you'd better practice for them too. I've seen video of multiple shooters mixing things up at arm's length ranges and no one getting hit.
... you may be called on to do so, whether you like it or not...
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It is remotely possible that one might be put into a true self-defense situation that would require engaging the attacker with a pistol out past 20-25 yards where escape would not be possible, but that's getting into an astronomically unlikely situation.

LE and Military might be called upon to make shots like that to neutralize an active threat since they don't have the luxury of escape. But it's more than just quite unlikely that someone would actually be forced to take a shot like that in self-defense.
But...., in the circumstance where you are capable and do have the means, I do believe you do have a responsibility to act.
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Outside of LE and military, any such "responsibility" would be self-imposed. Some people might feel the self-imposed duty so strongly that they don't believe it is actually self-imposed, but that doesn't change the facts.

And people on both sides (and in the middle) of that particular argument will most certainly be able to rationalize whatever level of "responsibility" they choose to self-impose. That makes a debate about that particular topic useless. More to the point, because it is about beliefs and moral codes and personal feelings, it's going to be difficult if not impossible to discuss it without both sides making statements that are likely to be taken as insulting by those with a different viewpoint.

So, feel free to continue discussing the tactics and training aspects of long/short shots; but for the sake of everyone involved, that's the end of the discussion about what level of "responsibility" everyone should or shouldn't feel and why.
 
My thoughts on running away... If you stand still, you are kind of hard to see, the minute you start to run! You call attention to your self, you will normally run in a straight line, not good, 16 rounds of 9mm, gives a lot of chances to get nailed. A 147g WW Ranger T through your heel, for instance, puts you down, crippled.

Marksmanship, 50m full sized man, but how about the toe of a sneaker, sticking out from behind a dumpster? at 20m? Aim 4" in front of it!
When he is flopping on the deck, next shot is a keeper.

You need good sights, nice trigger. This is were the 50 years shooting bull's-eye, pays off.
 
Judging from all the folks at all the matches I've been, not too many people can hit moving targets worth a dang, with pistols or rifles.
Even ones moving in a straight line - laterally and even away, that is.
And that's with nobody shooting back.
So maybe running isn't all that bad an idea.
Might have to dial up the treadmill a couple of notches. :)
 
g.willikers turning up the treadmill brings up another aspect of preparing for the unexpected in my opinion. Being fit physically also gives us additional options. I think that is an often neglected element that has great impact on our ability to respond to trouble effectively. For the sake of full disclosure, my jeans are a bit snugger than they were last fall. :o
 
G.W

Most of the IDPA matches I have been to (a lot) the moving targets are not normally moving in any kind of natural way, just gimmicks.

As in flipping from side to side, or dropping down more or less, whereas moving laterally away, they are not changing profile too much, getting smaller?
I can hit coming, or going quite well.

The latest Police Shooting in Gainsville FL. Bullets in walls, through windows, into furniture, car windows shot out, all three? Officers fired, no verbal communications at all.

No one was taught combat breathing (to drop BP Adrenalin) one of my favorite, and cheap, marksmanship drills, 2" black spots, on cardboard at 5 or 7m, with duty pistol. Straight from holster.
 
The way things are in the world today with terrorism, etc....I agree that it is a good idea to be able to shoot at different distances to handle different scenarios which are likely to occur. More power to those who can hit those 50 yd and 75 yd shots. Practice makes perfect.
 
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