Educate me on the M855

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OkieCruffler

New member
First off, before you get crazy I'm against any ban of any ammo, or firearm, or accessory for that matter. But as I don't buy loaded ammo I'm not familiar with this M855 stuff. Seems that some folks are acting like this is the death of shooting the 5.56. Was this stuff so popular because it was really good, or was it really cheap? Some places, like CTD are gouging the heck out of people and some folks seem willing to pay top coin for this stuff. I admit I'm out of my element when it comes to modern weapons (if you can call the AR modern) so I'm just curious to learn.
 
I'll be the first to say it was good, not great ammo. It is ballistically superior to the 55 gr round at about the same price.

The steel core makes it a bit unstable in my reloads, but maybe the bullets were no good.
 
Due to its slightly longer length it performs a bit better in 1x7 twist rate barrels that are very popular, and owned in large numbers. It is also widely available, and inexpensive, or at least it was. It offers a good alternative for those on a budget to get some trigger time, and is a decent performer for game or self defense. There are better bullets, but the combination of price, and performance has been very attractive.
 
Been reading many of the threads and this one of course. Actually learning today and my school guidance councilor said I couldn't be learned nothing.
 
OkieCruffler, I'm just going to hit the highlights, (exact details later, if desired)

Original ammo for the m16 is the 55gr FMJ. (Ball, M193)
When our military noticed increasing numbers of Warsaw Pact forces fielding body armor, they wanted a round better able to penetrate it.

Result was a 62gr bullet with a steel "penetrator insert" in the core. This is the M855 ammo. Being as the Soviet bear was the primary threat (for many years) this ammo became the most produced and used. New barrels and M16variants for this ammo came into service.

So, the M855 also became the most common on the surplus market, as well. So, in other words, a lot of the cheap "surplus" ammo was the M855.
(thanks to our war on Terror, there is very little actual "surplus", what we see on the market called "surplus" is mostly ammo never accepted by the military, and then sold as surplus, its new made to GI specs for civilian sale, or military contract overruns sold on the civilian market.

NOW, the ATF wants this ammo banned as "armor piercing handgun ammo."
Their argument is based on the fact that it has steel in its core and there are "handguns" that fire can fire the round.
(this has been the case for many years, and only now is the ATF trying to ban it.)

All discussion of this legal aspects of this matter is being done in the L&CR forum. Please go there for that.

Hope this helps.

(if this answers your question well enough for now, we can close this thread.)
 
Thanks 44 AMP, that was pretty short and sweet and thanks Okie for asking the question too.

I don't shoot .223 but was kind of interested in all the hubbub about it. With 44 AMP's summary I got a little more interested and found this too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO

It's Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth.

P.S. I always realized that the 855 round has been around for quite a while and that banning it after all this time is both futile and silly.
 
In my opinion the ATF opens the door to lots of inexpensive surplus ammo 7.62 X 54r - 39 and 8MM being banned by them too. Am I wrong to think this?
 
peggysue said:
In my opinion the ATF opens the door to lots of inexpensive surplus ammo 7.62 X 54r - 39 and 8MM being banned by them too. Am I wrong to think this?
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That depends. What's your reasoning for thinking these other rounds might be in line for a ban?
 
A critical factor in the ATF's justification of their M855 ban attempt is that there are "handguns" for sale on the commercial market that chamber the round. Any round that isn't currently chambered in any handgun available on the commercial market is not in any danger.
 
Therein lies the rub I suppose. I don't know AR's for poo but I do know long range "handguns". There isn't a round chambered that I can't buy a handgun chambered for. It may not be what most would think of as a handgun but the BATF sees them as so. But that's for the legal scholars to argue. I was just curious as to why this ammo was so popular. Seems it's the equivalent of the old Turkish bandoliers of 8mm I used to feed my Mausers. Good enough and cheap. I've never shot surplus .223 from my Contender, or any factory load for that matter but I did use some pull-down bullets for fireforming once. More accurate than I expected.
 
Okie, I agree entirely. Contender put some rifle rounds in their guns in the 70s, and when the Encore came out, virtually ALL rifle rounds could be had in a handgun. ATF never seemed to have any heartburn about that.

There is a substantial rumor going around that the current ATF push against M855 ammo is backlash against AR pistol owners. Apparently some of these fine folk made Utube videos, using the AR pistol and the "brace" (that the ATF ruled was legal), to effectively make an SBR without jumping through ATF hoops or paying the tax. While I have not watched them myself, reports are that they are basically "thumbing their nose" at the ATF.

According to the rumor, the ATF has "returned the favor" by trying to take away a good chunk of the AR pistol shooters, "play ammo" (cheap surplus), under the existing law covering AP pistol ammo.

I'm sure that, if the rumor is true, the fact that this would impact a lot more people than the (supposedly) targeted group (AR pistol shooters) is simply a matter of convenient collateral damage to the ATF.

And I still have 3 bandoliers of that Turk 8mm (60rnds on clips). They are hanging off the rack of three 8mm Mausers, a kar98k, a vz-24, and a Yugo 48. If I'm ever in a situation where I need to arm someone, these will be issued out. ;)
 
I bumped up my 7.62 X54r ammo by 880 rds. Just because I have 4 rifle that take it and I have only one can on hand. thinking of hitting 7.62 X39 next. I like the wood cases.
ATF is after steel core ammo calling it armor piercing too.
Besides one can never have enough ammo.
 
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how come no-one just makes the steel-core rounds for reloaders? you would have to think they would be popular in .308 and .223. ALCO is the only company I can think of that makes them, is their a reason? isn't it technically legal just to sell projectiles no matter what the bullet's legal status
 
And don't forget Obama has banned Russian manufactured Ammo. But we have imports of other Europian ammo, steel cased stuff. It works in my AUG, and AK47. Two years to go!!
 
Originally posted by OkieCruffler:

Therein lies the rub I suppose. I don't know AR's for poo but I do know long range "handguns". There isn't a round chambered that I can't buy a handgun chambered for.
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The difference is those other handguns chambered for rifle rounds are generally single shot sporting pistols, not hi-cap semi-autos. The idea behind the LEOPA of 1985 was to protect LEOs from criminals with concealable hi-cap semis, using ammo capable of penetrating their soft body armor. The steel core tip of the M855 was designed for NATO to do that against Warsaw pact enemies. From what I understand, only the loaded M855 cartridges are legal for sale to the general public, the projectiles themselves are not.
 
From what I understand, only the loaded M855 cartridges are legal for sale to the general public, the projectiles themselves are not.
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This brings up some interesting questions in my mind. I admit I am not well versed in the specific details of all the armor piercing ammo laws, and must ask others here to correct me if I am in error.

As I understand it, some time ago the govt. restricted AP rifle ammo. No more sale, although possession was still allowed. Loaded ammo. NOT the bullets. Those could still be bought and sold, as bullets, only.

I do know the AP ammo disappeared from the gun shows. Bags of AP bullets (and I'm talking .30 cal) appeared instead, and can still be found, here and there. Pulldowns from the banned ammo.

I don't recall exactly how they legally define rifle AP, but I think the M855 penetrator insert does not qualify.

A different law, with a different definition of what is AP, for handguns came later. m855 ammo, was not considered handgun ammo at the time. Handguns firing .223 Rem/5.56mm did exist at the time of the law, but there were no repeating handguns in that caliber on the market.

And the decision to classify M855 ammo as AP pistol ammo has not yet been finalized. IF it is designated handgun AP, it creates an interesting paradox.

Can reason upset the law? Or can only the law upset reason?

How can the same round, fired from a barrel over 16" and from a firearm possessing a buttstock not be armor piercing in law, if when fired from a barrel less than 16" and from a firearm without a buttstock it is armor piercing in law?
 
The difference is those other handguns chambered for rifle rounds are generally single shot sporting pistols...
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Or at least they're firearms which are blatantly obviously sporting firearms.

You're correct that the issue here is sporting vs. "not sporting" firearms.
 
Originally Posted by Brit
And don't forget Obama has banned Russian manufactured Ammo.
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If that's correct, how is it that we can still buy Golden Bear, Silver Bear, Brown Bear, and Tul-Ammo?
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Don't confuse bans on the import of a particular ammo for political or other reasons (using it being AP as a smokescreen) with a ban on possession and sale (using AP as a smokescreen) of the ammo at all. They are much different matters.
 
44 AMP said:
Don't confuse bans on the import of a particular ammo for political or other reasons (using it being AP as a smokescreen) with a ban on possession and sale (using AP as a smokescreen) of the ammo at all. They are much different matters.
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That was my point. Brit's statement was that Obama has banned Russian ammo. On its face, the statement means that Obama has banned ALL Russian ammunition, and I don't think that's the case. My understanding is that he has banned Russian-made, military surplus ammunition in caliber 7.62x39. That's a far cry from "Obama banned Russian ammo."
 
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