EAA 9mm...

[druryj]

If you're seriously asking that question, you've not done your homework. The CZ was around for 10-15 years before Tanfoglio started making their version. There's nothing to debate.



The CZ-75 was not sold in Czechoslovakia until 1985, when it became popular among sport shooters. The guns did find a market in Africa and the Middle Est. In 1989, when the Soviet Union was losing control of its satellite nations, the Czech adopted the 75 for it's military, and CZ began selling their guns widely throughout Africa and the Middle East.



In the late '80s, it seems that a senior CZ firearms engineer defected to the West taking with him a lot of specs; Tanfoglio apparently hired him and made a clone of the CZ for resale. (They may have already started reverse-engineering the gun before then...)



Around 1990's, Tanfoglio began to expand their line, and made a number of changes (and some say, improvemens), and which they've continued to do over the years. Only the very earliest Tanfoglio models were true CZ clones - all subsequent CZ-based guns models are called "CZ-pattern" guns.



I can't find any reference to Tanfoglio-made guns being made or sold before the early 1990s. Tanfoglio made parts and frames for a number of gunmakers around that time, including Springfield (p9) and Magnum Research, and the Israeli IMI and IWI firms (which made weapons for their military and civilian resale). Turkey later bought licensing rights from Tanfoglio and made their own versions for their military, and then started expanding their own arms industry.



Because CZ (being a Soviet Bloc/Warsaw Pact member) consider their design specs to be military grade restricted info, they could not apply for international patent protections in the West, so Tanfoglio was free to steal the design.



The current CZ-pattern guns offered by Turkey and coming to the U.S. seem to be a combination of Tanfoglio and CZ design features. None of them seem to be clones (in the sense that only a small number of parts are interchangeable with the CZ design -- and, likely, the Tanfoglio version.)

I wasn't being serious...was being facetious.

 

[Sevens]

Nice raw abuse of the quote feature. Exactly that kind of post is why this forum does NOT make use of a one-click quote button.

As to Tanfoglio bs CZ, I do truly believe that the custom Tanfoglio line (Witness Elite Match and above pistols ONLY, MSRP $700ish and up) are indeed better handguns than almost all of the CZ pistols that they emulate... having had my hands on a few of them and even sending some shots through them.

The low-end Tanfoglio like the one that is the subject of this thread? I can't say I would agree that it is as good as a CZ.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, my understanding is that the Sphinx AT line were all in-house production - no Tanfoglio parts. I've handled one at a gun show and they are very nice.

You may be correct, but you'll be hard-pressed to prove it. (As will I...) If you can find more details or better proof, from any credible source, we will all be in your debt.

My understanding -- gleaned from a number of different sources -- is that only the original AT-84 was a true clone of the CZ, built in-house by ITM a under license from CZ. I thnk it may be the only true CLONE ever made.

The next version, the AT-84s, was not a CZ-licensed weapon, but was assembled in Switzerland (fitted, etc.) using Tanfoglio-made components and and maybe some parts from a vendor in Great Britain. (It may have been the same firm in G-B making CZ copies at the time; and you'll see one advertized every now and then.)

On the gunsmithing forums, you'll find that anyone buying the original AT-84 has run into parts problem: there weren't that many made and the parts, while nearly pure CZ, are hard to find and if found, to fit. (So are some early pre-B CZ parts.)

Most of the gun boards that have any info on the AT-84s say something to this effect:

The AT84S is a clone of Czech Republic’s “CZ 75” semi-automatic pistol. The AT84S was assembled by the Swiss company Solothurn ITM from parts largely purchased from Tangfolio, Italy. For a brief period these pistols were imported in to US by Action Arms.​

Sphinx has a brief history of what went on, but not by model. On their website they say that Sphinx acquired ITM in 1996 (which was long after the AT-84, AT-84s, and AT-88 were out of production). Both the ITM and Sphinx firms were well-regarded for their craftsmanship. The remaining firm (Sphinx which acquired ITM) built the AT-2000 series of Sphinx pistols, and the later 3000 series which seemed to be focued primarily on custom IPSC-type guns.)

If I stumble onto more info, I'll try to remember to update this discussion.

 

[Skans]

Walt, sorry, I was referring to the AT2000. Not the 84 and 84s. I was thinking clearly but obviously not typing clearly. I don't know anything more about the 84 and 84s than you do. However, I think the AT2000 marked their transition to Sphinx and also to completely inhouse production.

I Agree with what Sevens said regarding the higher end ($800+)Tanfoglios vs. CZ 75b, with one caveat: CZ is now making some higher end sporting versions of their 75b also; perhaps they got into the "clone business" too, but unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to check out the top end CZ's, so I can't remark on those...I just know they are out there.

http://czcustom.com/CZ-75-Tactical-Sports-9mm.aspx
http://czcustom.com/checkmatets.aspx

Interestingly, they look more like a Tanfoglios than a CZ.

The main reason I like my Tanfoglio so much is because it has the best DA/SA trigger I've ever experienced. Substantially better than my CZ. Also, for a 10mm, it's a dream to shoot.

 

[tallball]

For a cheap version, well-used, friend price, maybe $200. The fancier versions could be thousands. I got a well-used Tanfoglio "Mossad" version of the CZ75 for $300. It wasn't a good deal. Brand-new Turkish versions can be had for slightly less than that. (I love the pistol, it is my favorite 9mm out of the six I own, but $300 wasn't a great price.)

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, sorry, I was referring to the AT2000. Not the 84 and 84s. I was thinking clearly but obviously not typing clearly.

I understand. I do THAT far too often, myself.

The ITM AT and the Sphinx AT were seperated by a number of years. ITM wasn't associated with Sphinx when they were building the AT-84, 84s and 88. I guess the "AT" designation added to our confusion.
All they really seemed to have in common was a higher level of fit and finish and a design based on the CZ pattern. I agree that the Sphinx AT-2000 and later lines (incluiding the current SDP and 3000 guns) DO NOT use anything from Tanfoglio.

CZ is now making some higher end sporting versions of their 75b also; perhaps they got into the "clone business" too, but unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to check out the top end CZ's, so I can't remark on those...I just know they are out there.

CZ has been building race guns for quite a few years! The first large-frame CZ available here in the U.S. was the CZ-75 IPSC, and I think they were here in the early 2000's. That gun was very similar to the current Tactical Sport.

Before THAT there had the CZ Champion, based on the smaller 75 frmae. It as a similarly tarted up gun ( ) that looks a lot like the smaller brother of the current Czechmate. Angus Hobdell used to compete with the Champion, I'm told. I'd love to find one at a price I could afford!! (I have a "Champion" sear in my 85 Combat -- it was the "in" upgrade back in the late 90's before the larger frames got more popular.)