I think it's a "witness" not sure I don't know anything about EAA but a friend has one for sale. I was looking for good/bad things about this gun and what a fair price would be for a used one with one mag. The only thing I know about it is that it's a composite frame copy of a cz75 which I also don't know anything about so help is appreciated thanks
EAA 9mm...
- Thread starter Echolmes
- Start date
The EAA witness is actually made by an Italian gun maker named Tangfolio.
They are great guns however EAA's customer support is horrid if you believe 100's of posts on them.
For that reason I purchased the RIA/Armscor version known as the MAP1
Also made with Tangfolio parts but assembled and finished in the Philipines.
They are great guns however EAA's customer support is horrid if you believe 100's of posts on them.
For that reason I purchased the RIA/Armscor version known as the MAP1
Also made with Tangfolio parts but assembled and finished in the Philipines.
I have one of Tanfoglio's higher-end Witnesses; the "Stock". Mine is 10mm, hard-chrome slide and frame. It is a fantastic gun. Accuracy, trigger pull, fit and finish are near perfection. It's never given me a problem and is my favorite non-9mm to shoot.....my favorite 9mm is a Sig X-Five.
I can't tell you much about the polymer framed Tanfoglios, since I don't have one and have never shot one.
FWIW, if I could find a used 9mm Stock for about what I paid for my 10mm several years ago, I'd snatch it up.
I can't tell you much about the polymer framed Tanfoglios, since I don't have one and have never shot one.
FWIW, if I could find a used 9mm Stock for about what I paid for my 10mm several years ago, I'd snatch it up.
g.willikers
New member
The CZ design is so good that even 1911 guru Jeff Cooper liked them.
But why not go with the real ones from CZ, instead of a copy from the land of wine for lunch?
A wild guess as to the price of a Tanfoglio would be in the $250 to $300 range, friend to friend.
But why not go with the real ones from CZ, instead of a copy from the land of wine for lunch?
A wild guess as to the price of a Tanfoglio would be in the $250 to $300 range, friend to friend.
I have both a CZ 75B in 9mm (polished blue version) and a Tanfoglio Stock in 10mm. While I really love my CZ 75B, the Tanfoglio Stock is a superior gun to the CZ 75B. The trigger is significantly better on the Tanfoglio, the finish is more durable (maybe not fair, because my CZ is the blued one); the action on the Tanfoglio with conical barrel locks up tight as a drum. There are some other minor differences like stippling on the front and back of the frame that is nicer on the Tanfoglio, etc.
People can complain about Tanfoglio's customer service if they want - I personally haven't had any problems (I ordered 3 magazines from EAA in Cocoa and the person on the phone was quite helpful), but I'm sure others have. Regardless of whether you like EAA or not, the Witness guns made by Tanfoglio, especially their higher end guns, are of exceptional quality. There's really no debating this and since I own both, I don't really have any dog in the fight.
Lemme get this straight...Tanfoglio copied CZ.... Or is it the other way around? Let's debate!
g.willikers
New member
Just some thoughts on the subject:
Maybe the quality of the CZ is more consistent gun to gun, batch to batch, year to year.
Or maybe, since so many different companies have used Tanfoglio parts, there might be some variety in quality between them all.
But it does indicate something that Springfield had invested so much in their P9 version and then abandoned it for an obscure pistol from Croatia, (that became their XD brand).
Maybe the quality of the CZ is more consistent gun to gun, batch to batch, year to year.
Or maybe, since so many different companies have used Tanfoglio parts, there might be some variety in quality between them all.
But it does indicate something that Springfield had invested so much in their P9 version and then abandoned it for an obscure pistol from Croatia, (that became their XD brand).
Limnophile
New member
EAA is also importing Sarsilmaz clones of the CZ 75, so I would not automatically assume the gun the OP is considering is a Tanfoglio.
Because a CZ clone has piqued his interest, I suggest the OP spend some time at Genitron (http://www.genitron.com/Handgun-Manufacturers) and compare the CZ 75 B to some of its clones, eg, the EAA Witness (Tanfoglio), the Sarsilmaz (imported by EAA), the Canik (Genitron didn't have this manufacturer well covered last I looked), and the IWI Jericho. Brand new, the best price will likely be found amongst the two Turk manufacturers, Sarsilmaz and Canik. I understand the fit and finish of the Turk clones are superb.
Because a CZ clone has piqued his interest, I suggest the OP spend some time at Genitron (http://www.genitron.com/Handgun-Manufacturers) and compare the CZ 75 B to some of its clones, eg, the EAA Witness (Tanfoglio), the Sarsilmaz (imported by EAA), the Canik (Genitron didn't have this manufacturer well covered last I looked), and the IWI Jericho. Brand new, the best price will likely be found amongst the two Turk manufacturers, Sarsilmaz and Canik. I understand the fit and finish of the Turk clones are superb.
Walt Sherrill
New member
druyj said:
If you're seriously asking that question, you've not done your homework. The CZ was around for 10-15 years before Tanfoglio started making their version. There's nothing to debate.
The CZ-75 was not sold in Czechoslovakia until 1985, when it became popular among sport shooters. The guns did find a market in Africa and the Middle Est. In 1989, when the Soviet Union was losing control of its satellite nations, the Czech adopted the 75 for it's military, and CZ began selling their guns widely throughout Africa and the Middle East.
In the late '80s, it seems that a senior CZ firearms engineer defected to the West taking with him a lot of specs; Tanfoglio apparently hired him and made a clone of the CZ for resale. (They may have already started reverse-engineering the gun before then...)
Around 1990's, Tanfoglio began to expand their line, and made a number of changes (and some say, improvemens), and which they've continued to do over the years. Only the very earliest Tanfoglio models were true CZ clones - all subsequent CZ-based guns models are called "CZ-pattern" guns.
I can't find any reference to Tanfoglio-made guns being made or sold before the early 1990s. Tanfoglio made parts and frames for a number of gunmakers around that time, including Springfield (p9) and Magnum Research, and the Israeli IMI and IWI firms (which made weapons for their military and civilian resale). Turkey later bought licensing rights from Tanfoglio and made their own versions for their military, and then started expanding their own arms industry.
Because CZ (being a Soviet Bloc/Warsaw Pact member) consider their design specs to be military grade restricted info, they could not apply for international patent protections in the West, so Tanfoglio was free to steal the design.
The current CZ-pattern guns offered by Turkey and coming to the U.S. seem to be a combination of Tanfoglio and CZ design features. None of them seem to be clones (in the sense that only a small number of parts are interchangeable with the CZ design -- and, likely, the Tanfoglio version.)
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Don't forget, the Swiss company ITM made CZ clones using Tanfoglio parts and they are considered to be very high quality clones. There's nothing wrong with Tanfoglio parts. I believe the current production line-up of Tanfoglios are at least as good, if not better, as the Swiss made guns using Tanfoglio parts.
My suggestion: Ignore the "noise" about customer service and look at the gun itself. Look at a Witness Stock, Stock II, Stock III, Gold, and Limited pistols - these are exceptional guns. Even the Match pistols are fine guns. I take nothing away from CZ they make some very fine sporting pistols as well, but I think the Tanfoglios are a little nicer.
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g.willikers
New member
I had the opportunity to look and handle the Swiss version.
Very expensive and very good quality.
Far and away better than the one I had from you know who.
Very expensive and very good quality.
Far and away better than the one I had from you know who.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Skans said:
As best I can tell, only the first ITM AT-84 was a clone and ITM made the parts.
The far more common and popular ITM AT-84s was pure Tanfoglio... and not a clone. (I've got both -- and about the only thing from an AT-84s that can be used in a CZ is the magazine and recoil spring. ) They later models are even less CZ-like. Over the years they've changed things: the Tanfoglio firing pin block is arguably a better design than the CZ's, and they've changed the configuration of the hammer spring, modified the extractor (and the channel in which it rides), did away with the magazine break, changed pin diameters throughout, etc, etc. They are certain based on the CZ design, however.
(I really wish I could use the CZ Kadet Kit on the AT-84s -- but I can't: the slides aren't interchangeable. I've had several AT-84s models over the years, and they're nice guns (made using Tanfoglio parts.) I've never had one of the original AT-84 models nor seen anything but a photo.
I have had several Sphinx guns (I think Sphinx firm, which recently changed hands, is a descendent of the original ITM firm) -- and they're like CZs, but made with much better fit and finish. The newer Sphinx models have some minor changes that make them more refined than the CZ design upon which they're based.
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To the OP, please note the distinction that EAA is an importer and there is no evidence that EAA has ever manufactured anything. The gun is imported, sold and serviced by EAA, but it is a Tanfoglio, made in Italy, and they have been making decent guns for a very long time. In that span of time, it should also be noted that Tanfoglio has also produced a scrap heap of cheap little junky guns also. But maybe also relevant that Tanfoglio CZ-pattern guns have been standard issue for many years to Israeli Mossad. Tanfoglio knows quite well how to make quality handguns.
Directed toward poster skans, as you and I both have had extremely terrific UPSCALE Tanfoglio pistols, I'm just not so sure how relevant that is to these questions of the mass produced low-cost DA Tanfoglio CZ-pattern pistols. I have the Elite Match and yours is a higher grade than mine and these guns are RIDICULOUS all on their own, but for the price, they become even more amazing.
But does that honestly translate to the basic high production guns?
I just can't see where the experience you and I have with these elite pistols is actually relevant. But that's just me thinking out loud I guess.
Directed toward poster skans, as you and I both have had extremely terrific UPSCALE Tanfoglio pistols, I'm just not so sure how relevant that is to these questions of the mass produced low-cost DA Tanfoglio CZ-pattern pistols. I have the Elite Match and yours is a higher grade than mine and these guns are RIDICULOUS all on their own, but for the price, they become even more amazing.
But does that honestly translate to the basic high production guns?
I just can't see where the experience you and I have with these elite pistols is actually relevant. But that's just me thinking out loud I guess.