Durbin: Remove him from the Senate NOW

[Marko Kloos]

Polarized thinking...the same phenomenon that makes people claim that if you support an accused child molester's right to a jury trial, you are somehow defending pedophilia.

 

[Heist]

It's unsettling.

Polarized thinking...the same phenomenon that makes people claim that if you support an accused child molester's right to a jury trial, you are somehow defending pedophilia.

I hope no one here would really claim that.

 

[gburner]

Heist,

Funny, but I've lived with or worked with mentally retarded folks all of my life.

Not once did I find any of them lacking purpose, embarrassingly pathetic or desirous of stacking naked folks in piles.

Whatever points you wanted to make, good or ill, get lost because of comments that betray a total lack of sensitivity, respect or empathy.

In that respect, you and Sen. Durbin are cut from the same cloth.

And I'm the one with 'polarized thinking'. Feh.

 

[Rojoe67]

Get real......

Did something between UCMJ and courts martial get forgotten with the stacking of prisoners? I thought a trial went on and some folks were dealt with in the military way of justice? Seems that the wrong and disloyal act by a few individuals does give the Army a bad name. Why is that the case? The few were way out of line and dealt with once the investigation was complete. I didn't recall the Bush Administration trying to talk it's way out of it.... It said it was sorry for this awful treatment and promised to get a full investigation into it. It also made sure justice was swift and fair. We could take that incident and bring it over to our public life. If one bad police officer was found guilty of a criminal act does that make all that serve in law enforcement some how responsible? Or give anyone right to bash them for one bad apple? Get real and stop trying to compare the treatment at GITMO and the prisoner abuse as the same. It is nothing alike nor does it in anyway go hand and hand.

And the original idea of this post was Derbin and his very poor communication skills.......... Like it or not he said what he felt he needed to express. It seems rather sad it took him so long to figure out he had just been disloyal to the United States Military of yesterday and today..... Then give such a sorry example of an appology. He would have been better to stick with his original idea. This mental slip on his part should likely cost him any future political offices. Well, we can hope anyhow. You see somethings are hard to forgive. If he would have been less discriptive but his long wind idea of what the military is just likely get him the Golden Foot in the Mouth Award for 2005.

 

[mvpel]

The only "mental slip" involved was letting the world hear how he and other fringe Democrats like him really feel about the US military.

 

[longspurr]

After reading the story on Google I sent "slimy Dick" a suggestion.

Sir
As I read of your concern for the questionably held people in Guantanamo I realized this could be an opportunity for you to bring federal dollars to Illinois.

Have the prisoners transferred to an Illinois facilities were we could better understand them. Since many have not been charged they can probably be put into a work release – probation status right here in Chicago. They will blend right in with all the other undocumented workers here in Chicago most of who don’t speak English.

Sincerely

I would love to know how seriously his office takes this suggestion.

 

[Handy]

It strikes me that taking Durbin's comments as an attack on the character of US troops is just spin.

His statement was about policy and was intended to create new policy. Saying it was a character attack just serves to divert the debate with scandal rather than answering the question: Does the US torture prisoners for information?


The important part of Durbin's statement isn't the silly comparison, it is the alledged facts that prompted the analogy. Funny how no one wants to discuss that part when we have an analogy to get upset about.


I have no idea what's going on in Gitmo, which bothers me. When stuff like this comes up I'd rather someone investigate and either confirm or kill the rumor.

 

[mvpel]

Ok, so let's talk about the treatment that some of the terrorists in Guantanamo are getting, in an effort to compel them to disclose information that could save the lives of US and Iraqi troops.

Is it better, worse, or about the same as chain-gang prisoners used to get in Southern prisons?

Is it better, worse, or about the same as an average-to-severe fraternity pledge hazing ritual?

Is it better, worse, or about the same as a nonviolent first-offense burglar being gang-raped in a US prison every day and twice on Sundays, something that is tolerated or ignored by prison officials across our country, to the point where California considered handing out condoms?

Johnson claims that high-ranking officials on the classification committee mocked him during his hearings. "If you want to be a 'ho,' you'll be treated like a 'ho,' " he says one official told him. He also alleges that officials crudely suggested that because he was gay, all the sex was consensual. In his legal complaint, Johnson quotes one official as saying, "I personally believe you like dick. You like this s***. . . . I don't think you need no safekeeping. You need to be placed on high security where you don't have anything but one cellie and then you can get f***ed all the time."

...
Johnson also alleges that high-level prison staff told him to use violence to resist his attackers, to "fight or f***." But when Johnson did resist, he was punished, once earning 15 days of solitary confinement—a punishment he says he found even more psychologically traumatic than his daily ordeals on the cellblock.

 

[Rojoe67]

*

The International Red Cross is just one big observer at GITMO. They have been around a few years and are recognized by most countries on this earth. I tend to think if the enemy combatants were being mistreated these folks might be letting the world and the media know about it. If we mistreat these folks so bad I am wondering how it is we would let them out after detaining them at all? The report as of yesterday was at least 12 that were detained and released went back and fought again. Yes, again they fought and tried to kill our troops and again they were captured. As long certain people always argue fact, just to debate or sell stories to the press, our troops will somehow always be at fault for something. If it were peace all through the world the negative side would say....those lazy, paid for peace, no working so and so's......... It is pointless to explain logic to some. As for me, I am aware of how the military has numerous check and ballance measures in place. Inspection teams, political visitors, human rights groups, foreign nation diplomats, UN, NATO, state and federal services, media of all kinds and the list goes on. Sure somethings don't always go as plan or something slips through a crack. It is a very small percentage.... Most of the Officers, NCO's and Enlisted folks could step from the military job into a civilian position and excell. They decided to take an oath and serve the nation not just self.....

If I could say so.....Our forces are the most trained and professional military on earth. They do so much that is never reported by the media. The forces in Bosnia are seldom if ever reported on. Just not enough money made in good news? What about rescue missions, fire fighting, natural disaster relief just to name a few.......

 

[Handy]

mvpel,

Are you actually offering one type of mistreatment as an excuse for another? "But Johnny jumped off the cliff!"


I guess we could have just gassed all the Germans after WWII.

 

[mvpel]

No, I'm wondering where "perspective" dropped off the RADAR screen when Dick Durbin compares harsh interrogation techniques and psychological pressure to Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler.

 

[CraZkid]

I like the way you think, Longspur!

 

[Mustang65]

IMHO, almost all politicans will say or do almost anything to stay in power. Keyword: "Almost". Are there honorable people in government? Sure are. Darn sure are but only a few. Our governmental system is flawed from the top down and not only because of money. Power is the root cause of corruption in our government. Throw Durbin out? Where was the outrage when Robert Byrd made the comment on national news about "white niggers"? What about Howard Dean and his "I hate republicans"? What about Bill Clinton? No explanation needed there. Face it, we as a nation have elected a group of people that have no shame, no honor and cannot say the truth. Throw Durbin out? Sure he should be sent packing but he's darn sure not at the head of the list of traitors who should be going out the door.

 

[gburner]

Nice...another post exploring the parameters of moral relativism. 'What Durbin said was bad but let him stay 'cause he's not the only one who has behaved in a shameful, illegal or treasonous way'. Gimme a break.

Folks...ya gotta start somewhere. If you excuse each treasonous outburst or outrage by comparing it to the previous one where no consequences were meted out then no ones feet ever get held to the fire.

I'm pretty sick of liberals talking smack about our president, our military and our fight against our enemies and then crying when someone pulls their card.
They need to STFU.

 

[Mustang65]

Not really sure where to begin. gburner, moral relativism? Must have not made myself clear, a bad habit I admit to. Give Durbin a pass? Never said or implied that. No idea where you came up with that one. Hold everyone's feet to the fire? Kinda/sorta thought that was what I was saying. The main point I was attempting to make was that the majority of our elected officials are way south of the corrupt line and Durbin is by no means the first or the worst. If you can't understand this attempt to make myself clear then we must be at a total impass.

 

[gburner]

Sorry 'stang...

I re-read your post and we seem to be coming from the same place. I'm just weary of continually seeing stories of 'our leaders' involved in various felonies, misdemeanors and/or teasonous behavior and always getting a pass. I'm tired of shaking my head in disgust and then thinking 'whatta you expect, they all do it'.

Durbin's comments have the effect of giving aid and comfort to the enemy by denegrating our soldiers, lowering morale and causing chaos in our own ranks at home. He deserves a great deal more heat than he received.

 

[Heist]

Durbin's comments have the effect of giving aid and comfort to the enemy by denegrating our soldiers, lowering morale and causing chaos in our own ranks at home. He deserves a great deal more heat than he received.

Devil's advocate: show me some soldiers who will step up and say "Well, everything was hunkydory until this guy compared anyone who would commit torture or inhumane acts to Nazis and now our morale is down and there's chaos."

Somehow I expect it's more likely to be "We aren't torturing anyone, what he said about Nazis is true, and if anyone is commiting torture they'll be caught and dealt with just like the ugly woman and her boyfriend in Abu Ghraib but we certainly don't think that attacking some individual inbreds who wouldn't belong in the service anyway if they are performing those actions is a smear on all of us."

Gburner, are you one of the guys I saw on barfcom suggesting that the (idiot IMHO) owner of forsakethetroops should be waylayed and beaten?

 

[Eghad]

The big ordeal is not about treatment....

But about a right to a trial. One of the foundations of this nation is about a right to a trial. If we single one group out and say they deserve no trial...then which group will be next? Every time this happens the envelope gets pushed a little further.

Doesnt it make you a little nervous that Depatment of Justice Attorneys were tasked to write opinions on the legality of torturing these prisoners? What happens when a citizen comes up with damging information about an administration and he is declared an enemy of the state and shipped to Guantanamo?

The US has shipped prisoners to nations that have no qualm about torturing prisoners. Last week the CIA kidnapped a person from Italy.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has even gone against the advice of the military's JAG Departments.

How can we say that we are bringing democracy to Iraq when we use some of the same methods Saddam used, when we knowingly turn them over to a third party for torture?

Now I know the flames will come saying the terrorist kill our folks they capture. I have nothing against these guys getting a trial and an execution if caught, or a bullet if they are armed and resisting capture. If those imprisoned dont get trials....then we are leaving the gate open for it to happen here at home as well as giving the bad guys carte blanche to do what they want to with our folks without any kind of redress.

President Bush claims we are the good guys bringing democracy to Iraq. If that is what we are then we need to act like it and not present two faces to the world.

 

[IZHUMINTER]

Doesnt it make you a little nervous that Depatment of Justice Attorneys were tasked to write opinions on the legality of torturing these prisoners?

And just when did they do that? I handle detainees, and I never saw such opinions. I have seen memos on standards of legally permissable conduct, but such standards are not better or worse than those which can be found in Western correctional institutions.

The average Westerner leads a very, very easy life...and has absolutely no idea what torture is. Here are a few examples:

1) A newly appointed Judge Advocate visited my detention site, and demanded we furnish the detainees with beds as making the detainees sleep on mats was "inhumane." I asked her if she had ever been to an Iraqi home, or for that matter, any Third World home. She answered that she had not. I asked if she was aware that most Iraqis sleep on a rug spread on the floor, or directly on the ground outside during the summer. She did not believe me, but to her credit agreed to accommpany me to the quarters on post where two of our translators and their families lived. After examing their quarters and speaking with the families (who could very well afford beds but had no use for them), she dropped the demand for beds admitting that she had no idea or understanding of the culture involved.

2) The same JAG also demanded that we furnish the detainees with blankets, as the night time temperatures were dropping into the 50s and it would be inhumane to make people sleep in such temperatures. I immediately walked her and a translator to the nearest detainee. I asked his occupation, and he answered "goat herder." I asked him where he slept at night, and he replied "with the goats." I asked what kind of clothes or blankets he slept with and he pointed at the clothes he was wearing. Asking the same question again, he clarified that he slept on a blanket, but not under one. When it got cold, he would wear heavier clothes, but the only time he ever slept under a blanket was in his home when he had a fever. Asking the same questions from two farmers, a 19-year old student and an electrician got roughly the same answer. Again, the JAG was forced to admit that she was framing her idea of what was humane solely on her upbringing and not on the culture.

3) The environmental manipulation practiced at Gitmo is nothing like the environmental manipulation practiced in Soviet gulags or Nazi concentration camps (or for that matter, nothing like that prohibited by the Geneva conventions). Our forms of environmental manipulation are uncomfortable, but not damaging. The Soviet and Nazi forms were were not merely damaging but potentially lethal. For a modern Westerner to compare the two is understandable, as they have likely never been in an extreme environment unprotected before. They do not know the difference between walking into a dairy cooler in shirt sleeves and standing for hours in tattered rags in below zero temperatures. Yes, they are in fact similar...but the difference in degree (no pun intended) makes them unfit for comparison.

4) One of my subordinates interrogated a 60-year old man who had been captured holding a still smoking Rocket Propelled Grenade launcher. Regardless of the approach used, the man simply smiled and refused to answer even basic questions (what is your name, how old are you, etc.). Then man, a devout Wahabbist, was fully capable of speaking as he requested food and latrine usage, requested (in English) to be given a copy of the Koran and prayed aloud five times a day. Changing his environment of positioning had no effect. As a show of defiance, he once stood in the corner of his cell staring at his guards for over 24 hours, smiling the whole time. During his medical examination, his body bore unmistakable signs of real torture...broken bones, cigarette and acid burn scars, and holes in his shins from a drill. What we could do to him was miniscule in comparison.

I guess what I'm trying to say can be summed up in the words of the Anti-Defamation League: "Suggesting some kind of equivalence between (U.S. military) interrogation tactics demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about the horrors that Hitler and his regime actually perpetrated." For this, Sen. Durbin should apologize.

 

[Eghad]

For your reading Pleasure......

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf

here are some quote from the Bybee memo

" We further conclude that certain acts may be cruel, inhuman or degrading, but still not produce pain or suffering of the requisite intensity to fall within Section 2304A's proscription against torture."

"Thus even if a defendant knows severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is his objective, he lacks the requisite intent specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith"

so its okay to use a method to cause a defendant a great deal of pain if that isnt your intent????? even though you know it would cause great pain????

"In light of the Presidents complete authority over warwithout a clear satement otherwise we will not read a criminal statute as infringing on the presidents authority in these areas."

"In order to respect the President's inherent constitutional authority to mantain a military campaign against Al Qaeda and its allies, Section 2304A must be construed as not applying to interrogations pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief Authority."

so its okay to break the law since I am the Commander in Chief??????????

"Congress lacks any authority under Article I to set the terms and conditionsunder which the president may excercise his authority as Commander in Chief to control the conduct of operations during a war."

so does that mean he can do anything he wants ?

scary stuff in there.......

I have no argument about the conditions the prisoners are living in nor the treatment....

I just have questions about due process for the prisoners.

Why the administration would even need such a memo.