Dumping the Taurus 85 for a 445

PAT, everyone seems to be breaking out the popcorn and beer and settling in for a long one. Well, I'm going to have to dissapoint them. Sorry if I ruffled a little feathers. I was a little edgy with some of my posts and I admit it was not a friendly way to discuss the issue. So, in the nicest way I can type, your'e still wrong!! Neener, Neener! :D
 
A 44 spcl snubby loaded with Corbon pushes over 1000ft/sec according to Corbon stats, which is good for a fairly large bullet.

That's nothing to sneeze at.
 
It's not the average 9.5 inch guy I'm worried about trying to stop. It's the 6'2" 280 lb muscle-bound felon that concerns me. My feelings are that with any handgun cartridge, shot placement is critical to the "one shot stop." A bigger caliber or a faster bullet doesn't mean you can get sloppy.

Bottom line: the best handgun is the one you have with you when you need it. If it's too big to comfortably carry, you may not have it when you need it.
 
Holy dogs**t, ya'll! I was merely venting my frustration at the lack of "perceived" performance in 38 spl snubs from otherwise proven rounds fired by police at BG's from their 4" wheelguns. I have always been of the opinion that local, state, and fed LEO's went to 9mm, 40 S&W, and now 357 sig semiautos ONLY because 15+1 plus two more mags CAN be an advantage in some situations, such as one or two officers responding to a call that winds up being several BG's. the extra rounds COULD provide some sort of suppression until backup arrives or the partner could get to a shotgun or rifle. I don't think they ever lost confidence in the ability of the 38 spl to get BGs into the new career of pushing up daisies. Of all the gunrag tales that I've read, the only one that impressed me was two officers responding two a call. The first went in with a shotgun, and the BG's kept shooting. The second went in with a stainless 1911 and the whole group surrendered. It has led me to believe that, however strange it sounds, great big stainless muzzles have a better chance of preventing shooting than anything else short of something belt-fed or a flame thrower, neither of which is really practical for CCW. As far as jello cubes (I'm sure one will never attack me), computer simulations (I will bet some loads have been tested on the computer itself), ER docs (If I do my part right he won't need the ER; just a box) and one shot stops (If you are such a believer in that I hop you're not wasting ammo training to double-tap or rapid fire; and I have yet to see a chart that tells me the percentage of one shot stops for ONLY center of mass strikes at 15 yards or less; I don't think a 12 ga slug will stop a fight if you just wing his arm).

I think calibers like the 9mm and 40 and 357 Sig are great. I don't own one cuz I just don't like the guns they come in. The only 40 I would get would be the Para Ordnance P16-40, but there are higher priorities on the wish list. My number one consideration was "do I LIKE it"?
Number two was "will it do what it's supposed to"? I looked at Glock 32 and 33, the Sig 229 and 239, and the smallest H&K 40 cal in the case. I had no doubt they fit #2. They just didn't fit #1. The Taurus 85 fit #1 so well I never got to #2 until I had it a while. Stupid of me, but it happens to all of us in the gun store now and again. I didn't doubt that someone shot in the sternum 10 feet away with the 38 snub would go down. What if it's 10 yards and I don't hit the sternum? That's why the 445 is now on order (I wanted the bobbed hammer, which was not in stock on site). To ME, the 44 Spl snub hits #1 and #2. I've shot Glocks before, I've found them accurate and reliable, and I think they make a fine weapon. I just don't like a handgun that isn't stainless. When Glock comes out with a SS 357 Sig I can put Coco Bolo wraparound grips on, they'll get my money.

Sorry for the long post, but all the responses to my original problem got me all warm and fuzzy.
 
If you really want the caliber that has killed bad guys more often and longer, that would be the .45 LC which I am proud to say I own in the Taurus Total TI. Great shooter and the kick is manageable. What a big hole in the end of the barrel. :D
 
The argument against .44spl I can think of is the cost of the ammunition.

Another monkey wrench for you...have you considered a 3" or a 4" .38spl instead of the snubbie. It won't be any harder to conceal IWB than the thicker heftier .44 and you'd gain accuracy+velocity, lose muzzle flash all the while staying with cheap ammo and low recoil.
 
Let's put things back in perspective first...

How many of you would like to volunteer to be shot with one round of .38 Special?

(silence)

How many of you would like to volunteer to be shot with one round of .44 Special?

(silence)

With that said, I feel that the .44 Special and .38 Special achieve the same results through different avenues. The .44 Special uses bullet diameter and mass while the .38 Special relies heavily on bullet construction and (to a lesser degree) on velocity. Further, the .38 Special is extremely load specific. The only load I will carry in my two Smith & Wesson Centennials (640 and 642) is the 158-grain LSWCHP +P...better known as the FBI load. If you follow Evan Marshall, a quick look at the chart shows that this puts the .38 Special into the high 60% range. Also per Marshall, the .44 Special achieves a very similar rating using the boring old 246-grain round nose load crusing leasurely along at a little over 700 fps.

Both the .38 Special (FBI load) and the .44 Special have good reputations on the street that should not be overlooked. Either one will serve you well.

On a personal note, my primary reason for not owning a gun in .44 Special is that I have never been sufficiently impressed with the quality of the Taurus line of revolvers to trust the life of my wife and myself to. If I were to carry one of the Smith & Wesson .44 Special revolvers it would be with either CCI's Gold Dot load or Winchester's 200-grain Silvertip. Corbon's quality control, in my experience, is not as good so I stay with major brands.

If I am going to carry a revolver between 20 and 35 ounces it is going to be a .357 Magnum. Anything more than 35 ounces and it is going to be one of my five .41 Magnums.

- Anthony
 
Let me get this straight? You're not sure 5-38 special +P rounds will stop what you're shooting at?

Where do you live? I'd move?

I'm carrying a keltec p11, and I also own a M605 Taurus 5-shot .357. I've only shot .357 in it once, WOW did it kick!!! I'd shy away from getting a sub 20-oz (titanium) .357 or .41 or .44, just cause it won't be fun to practice, AND, I don't think you'll become superman when you'll need to shoot it, I think you'll shoot your followup shots like your practice followup shots.... poorly.
 
Darn server cut me off before the long reply posted; here's the short version: I don't doubt the 38 will do it's job perfectly if I do my job perfectly; what I doubt is my ability to my job perfectly every time, no matter how much I train. I feel more confident in the 44 with less than perfect hits, thus, I feel better armed. A 44 makes me feel better than a 38. Like I said earlier, a flamethrower would make me feel best, but that's really not practical.
 
Digger


ITs about a 50% bet that 5 38 rounds from a snub were almost none of the jhp's expand will stop someone thats bent on killing you. I carry one of these guns as a back up but after the first 2 shots the head will be my target.
PAT
 
Back to the original poster's question. (yes, I know arguing over temporary and permanent stretch cavities, and Fackler vs Marshall/Sanow is more fun...)

While the .38 with appropriate loads such as 158 +P+ LHP, 125 grn GS JHPs, or 125 grn +P Nyclads HPs would be sufficient loading, he mentions his confidence factor.
If he feels more confident with the .44 special, and loads it with reasonably fast HP loads, he will be fine.
 
DANGER...DANGER...DANGER...

Be careful with those stastics. My wife is getting a minor in Stats, along with her M.S.
If you say, or rather "they" say only 75% of perp's are killed with a one stop shot with a .44 spec. I'll believe you...But I think we can both agree that .38/.357's are FAR more common in shootings and by the "average" shooter than a .44 special.
Case in point: They may have looked at only 10 verifiable cases with the .44 special, because only 10 were availiable. Quick medical attention, hits in the limbs, etc...May have been the reason for the high "survivor rate".
Now take 1000 verifiable shootings with a .44 special shooting the same manufacturers rounds (albiet .44) and 1000 veriable shootings with the .38/.357 and than compare the results.
Until than and as my old Geology Prof said "everything else being equal", those books are flawed.
As for "stretch cavities" and the like. Let me ask you a question: I am 76" tall and weigh in at 257 lbs. I work out and if you look at me you'd say I weigh in at 220...Why? I am not only tall but have relatively dense (Yeah Hahaha...:)) bones and muscle tissue.
Now I have met other people who are my height, weigh in at ~260-270 and are pretty fat.
I have yet to see a definative study on the effects of a round not only through a variety of body masses, but a 360 degree arc.
Bet that .44 Special shot through my lower abdomen would look alot different than that same round shot through someone else. I think density and mass are two things many people leave out.
I mean if you shot that .44 Special at a NFL linebacker and than at a 270 lb couch potato would you get the same results?

Curious...

Jon

I own a Taurus 617SS2C. Great gun, seven rounds of .357 too. But I bought it because I could use any flavor of .38 and .357. After reading this debate and seeing Tamara's recent posts I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't look into a solid, reliable .44 Magnum snubbie as well...
 
Don't sell the 85! You'll get hosed on the trade-in value. Look a buck is a buck but I suggest you keep the 85 and save your money and then get the 445.

If you shoot a perp with 5 rounds of .38 Spcl. +P and they keep coming, I advise you hand them the gun and start negotiations. ;)

Learn to shoot this weapon and don't worry about it. I carry a 9mm Makarov most of the time in spite of the fact that I have other options, Glock, Ruger, etc.

I am confidnet with it and I can hit with it and besides if it gets confiscated during the aftermath of a self-defense shooting, so what? I was only $180.00 Bucks.

I also like the Sig 230/232 ACP option. Up close and personal it is very accurate and controlable without the potential for it to go through a perp and hit an innocent bystander. It also appeals to me for home use as well.

There is a caveat that the .38 Spcl, 9mm Makarov and .380 ACP all share, you must be able to hit precisely with them in order to be effective under any circumstance.

In areas where I am in gang-infested surroundings or in a rural locale, sure the .40 Caliber or .45 will be with me. More times than not, I will have a 9mm Mak, .38 or .22 LR in circumstances where there are larges numbers of people present or concealment is of paramount importance.

I admire the fact that you consulted your wife first. My advice to you is not to hide ANY gun purchase from her. She is already pro-gun and doing so might put a wedge between you and her. I did that in the past and it took a couple of years to work through. I am always up front with my Spouse. I hope you don't think I am condescedning because I am not. I don't want you to make the same mistakes I have made.
 
Will Beararms
5 rounds of 38 ain't a death ray mean have taken more rounds or more effecive bullets and still kept going. Also if the aftermath of a shooting the value of the pistol is the least of your worries. Keep the junk like the mak home and carry a good gun in a adiquate caliber at least 9mm or 38 +p.
PAT
 
PAT:

Granted, the .38 is not a death ray but I must tell you that I know of PCP users who kept coming after being shot with a .45ACP and a .40 caliber.

In the grand scheme, the $350.00 TO $400.O0 the good gentleman would pay for a 445 is not that much money and could be saved in no time. I hate to see people make the same mistakes I have by trading in a perfectly good gun at a loss to satisfy an impulse.

Those ugly Maks are rough but I have abused them and I keep them laying around to use as car guns. I also have one locked away at the hunting camp. I won't call em' top flight but I won't call em' junk either. I'm not in love with the Ballistics by any means but they have their place in my collection.
 
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