Okay, after actually losing TWO nights of sleep over it, I've convinced myself to trade in the week-old Taurus 85 for a 445. I got the 85 so I'd have a CCW gun I'd actually CCW, but the thought kept creeping in "what if showing the creep the business end doesn't work and, heaven forbid, you HAVE to pull the trigger"? I've also spent the week searching in vain for a round I'd trust my family's safety with, and in a 38 snub there wasn't one. The kicker was when I told my wife (over the phone) I got the 85. (My strategy is: buy the gun, wait a week, THEN tell her I bought it, preferably after she has made an impulse purchase). I told her why I got it (she agreed with the premise), and she asked me to compare it with the GP100 and the P14. After the call I went to taurususa.com. I also looked at charter arms' and rossi's sites. I like the stainless 445 with porting and bobbed hammer, but I was concerned about the 28 oz. How much difference will the 7 or 8 oz between it and the UL or TI make in a good IWB holster? This will also go in the coat pocket for the quickie trips to the store. Judging by my last few trips to various establishments, I'm going to have to order this thing (they're not overly popular round these parts), and I'd like some opinions before I plunk down the 50% deposit. As ya'll can tell by the 1 AM post time, this is going to be night three.
Dumping the Taurus 85 for a 445
- Thread starter JWR
- Start date
JWR,
The M445 will serve you well, however, I solved a simular problem by keeping the 85, and buying a M605. The .357MAG is a more potent round than the .38spl. You might want to consider it over the .44spl. Remember, the 445 will have quite a kick, especally in a snub.
Another thing to consider, is that the frame will be bigger too, I believe. The M605 is built in the same frame as the M85. The strength comes from different metalurgy. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Dennis
The M445 will serve you well, however, I solved a simular problem by keeping the 85, and buying a M605. The .357MAG is a more potent round than the .38spl. You might want to consider it over the .44spl. Remember, the 445 will have quite a kick, especally in a snub.
Another thing to consider, is that the frame will be bigger too, I believe. The M605 is built in the same frame as the M85. The strength comes from different metalurgy. Just my thoughts on the matter.Dennis
Come now, 355sigfan,
I do own a .357SIG auto and think it's a fantastic caliber, but I'm not so naive as to believe that a cartridge that's been killing bad guys dead for roughly a century suddenly can't do so any more because some gunzine hack has pronounced it "underpowered".
If you seriously believe that .44 Spl is too underpowered to use as a defense round, well, I'm sorry but the facts refute you. Good guys 'n' gals, LEO and otherwise, have saved their lives and put goblins in the ground with such "weakling" rounds as .38 and .44 Special for generations now. Jim Cirillo planted a fair number of BG's using a plain ol' Model 10 in .38 with no laser sights or ports or neoprene Hogues. I think that a lot of us who shoot for fun get so wrapped up in ballistics numbers and fancy gadgets that we let the stuff from our shooting hobby seep over and contaminate the deadly-serious business of using guns for self-defense. Putting too much faith in foot-pounds, feet-per-second and the gizmo-of-the-week is a sure sign of "seeking a hardware solution to a software problem".
I do own a .357SIG auto and think it's a fantastic caliber, but I'm not so naive as to believe that a cartridge that's been killing bad guys dead for roughly a century suddenly can't do so any more because some gunzine hack has pronounced it "underpowered".
If you seriously believe that .44 Spl is too underpowered to use as a defense round, well, I'm sorry but the facts refute you. Good guys 'n' gals, LEO and otherwise, have saved their lives and put goblins in the ground with such "weakling" rounds as .38 and .44 Special for generations now. Jim Cirillo planted a fair number of BG's using a plain ol' Model 10 in .38 with no laser sights or ports or neoprene Hogues. I think that a lot of us who shoot for fun get so wrapped up in ballistics numbers and fancy gadgets that we let the stuff from our shooting hobby seep over and contaminate the deadly-serious business of using guns for self-defense. Putting too much faith in foot-pounds, feet-per-second and the gizmo-of-the-week is a sure sign of "seeking a hardware solution to a software problem".
Hi JWR,
I went thru the exact same dilemma you're going through - I had a S&W 638 .38 snub that was great for carrying, but poor for actually stopping trouble with. I went to a bigger gun, a 696 .44 spec., and haven't looked back. Yes, it kicks a lot, but those big bullets plunking into the chambers when I load give me reassurance. And the hole in the muzzle will make someone stop and think. Long ago, I decided that I wouldn't shoot a person with anything that I wouldn't shoot a game animal with; as I would never shoot anything with a .38 spec. or 9mm, I dropped them. The .44 spec,/.45 auto/.45 Long Colt are what I carry with me deer hunting for close-up shots, and although they are not ideal, they're better than .38 caliber. Even the .357 doesn't have a good rep for hunting deer here, so I'll just stick with my big-bores.
Best of all, the full-size gun will be WAY easier to shoot well (at least that's what I found).
In an IWB holster, the weight of my 696 doesn't bother me, except maybe in the summer because it's harder to hide it.
I'd go for the 445.
I went thru the exact same dilemma you're going through - I had a S&W 638 .38 snub that was great for carrying, but poor for actually stopping trouble with. I went to a bigger gun, a 696 .44 spec., and haven't looked back. Yes, it kicks a lot, but those big bullets plunking into the chambers when I load give me reassurance. And the hole in the muzzle will make someone stop and think. Long ago, I decided that I wouldn't shoot a person with anything that I wouldn't shoot a game animal with; as I would never shoot anything with a .38 spec. or 9mm, I dropped them. The .44 spec,/.45 auto/.45 Long Colt are what I carry with me deer hunting for close-up shots, and although they are not ideal, they're better than .38 caliber. Even the .357 doesn't have a good rep for hunting deer here, so I'll just stick with my big-bores.
Best of all, the full-size gun will be WAY easier to shoot well (at least that's what I found).
In an IWB holster, the weight of my 696 doesn't bother me, except maybe in the summer because it's harder to hide it.
I'd go for the 445.
The 44 special stopping rate in the real world sucks at barely 75% with the best loads. SOme new loads like Corbons +p 165 grian load should be great but I would still rather have 6 proven 125 grain fight stoppers. The 44 special is no hunting cartridge unless its loaded to just under 44 mag level in a 44 magnum and whats the point of that.
PAT
PAT
A .44spl has less kick, less blast, and less noise than a .357 in the same size gun. I won't argue that the .357 may be a more potent round, but the .44 is much better than a .38 and has all the above mentioned advatages over the .357. I think it's the perfect "self defense" choice. I prefer the heavier 696 to the lightweight guns just because it handles better, but I don't worry too much about concealment either. I also have an 85 in .38 that I often carry when a holster is not an option. Both are more than sufficient. In .38 however, I prefer a 158gr SWC over the other highspeed whiz bang hollowpoints simply for the penetration.
"A .44spl has less kick, less blast, and less noise than a .357 in the same size gun" Don't forget less power boarding on pathetic in a snub with most loads around 650 fps and less rounds. Also the 44 kicks more that the 357 from a small snub of the same size in my expierence. The load you like in 38 special is a 50% load at stopping real world bad guys. Penitration is not the last word in stopping power in fact its of little importance once 9 inches is reached. The average person is 9.5 inches thick the organs are at 4.5 inches a load that gives 10 inches is more than enough 12 is ok much over 15 is down right stupid and will get you sued assuming the round you fire actually stops the bad guy flip a coin.
PAT
PAT
Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics...
Look, I own copies of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers, too. I believe Marshall and Sanow's hearts were in the right places. But you can sit down with a calculator and see for yourself that those stats are fried.
So, tell me again why a .355" diameter bullet that penetrates 10 inches is good, but a .429" bullet following the exact same wound path is bad? Besides, the whole "One-Shot Stop" rating idea is completely bogus for anyone who is carrying something other than a T/C Contender...
Look, I own copies of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers, too. I believe Marshall and Sanow's hearts were in the right places. But you can sit down with a calculator and see for yourself that those stats are fried.
So, tell me again why a .355" diameter bullet that penetrates 10 inches is good, but a .429" bullet following the exact same wound path is bad? Besides, the whole "One-Shot Stop" rating idea is completely bogus for anyone who is carrying something other than a T/C Contender...
Tamara
For one thing the .355 bullet expands and becomes at .55 (speer gold dot load) or .65 (federal load) caliber bullet at 1340(my sig 239 in 357 sig) while the 44 special at 650 seldom expands unless it bone and it stays .429.
Also stretch cavity is of more importance than the crush cavity and the faster more energetic projectile has a lot more stretch. Don't believe me look at the sucess of the 223.
PAT
For one thing the .355 bullet expands and becomes at .55 (speer gold dot load) or .65 (federal load) caliber bullet at 1340(my sig 239 in 357 sig) while the 44 special at 650 seldom expands unless it bone and it stays .429.
Also stretch cavity is of more importance than the crush cavity and the faster more energetic projectile has a lot more stretch. Don't believe me look at the sucess of the 223.
PAT
JWR,
OK, here's my .02....I actually owned a stainless (nonported)445..
I shot 3D Blue cowboy loads, Blazer 200gr. Gold Dots, and Win. 200gr. silvertips, and some PMC ammo; none of these loads had too much kick. The silvertips were the most accurate, for me, so that's what I kept in gun.
If you can fire 500 rounds and not have anything break, you will LOVE this weapon; the only reason I don't have mine is that it had parts failures (firing pin springs), otherwise it'd be my choice for a defensive tool..
As far as the 44 spec. being a creampuff, c'mon now...
I'd be interested in how your gun performs if and when you pick it up.....
Mike M.
OK, here's my .02....I actually owned a stainless (nonported)445..
I shot 3D Blue cowboy loads, Blazer 200gr. Gold Dots, and Win. 200gr. silvertips, and some PMC ammo; none of these loads had too much kick. The silvertips were the most accurate, for me, so that's what I kept in gun.
If you can fire 500 rounds and not have anything break, you will LOVE this weapon; the only reason I don't have mine is that it had parts failures (firing pin springs), otherwise it'd be my choice for a defensive tool..
As far as the 44 spec. being a creampuff, c'mon now...
I'd be interested in how your gun performs if and when you pick it up.....
Mike M.
355sig, it's a done deal. Over. It's already been proven more times than it needs to be that stretch cavity from a handgun is a moot point. Has no effect at all. At the most, the stretch cavity formed by your beloved .357sig is no more than the normal crush cavity produced by a .45, if even that much. A .223 isn't even in the same ballpark as a .357sig and has no correlation as to effect caused by stretch cavity. The only people in the world who believe all that crap about stretch cavity in handguns is M&S and their followers. It has been proven time and time again by medical doctors, ballisticians, and scientists that it is baloney. In fact, M&S are the only sources of evidence to support such a theory that is still in existence, and no one with any credibility at all can seem to agree with what they have said. The reason that doctors cannot tell that much difference between wounds caused by .45 and some other whiz-bang high speed caliber is because there isn't any. There is no magical energy dump death ray. Unconciousness is caused by blood loss. The bigger, deeper, and more jagged the hole, the faster you bleed. It's really very simple. No mystical formulas needed. And a .44spl makes a pretty darned good hole. Now understand that I'm by no means cutting down on the .357sig or any other high speed bullet. They are all adequately effective for a handgun. All I'm trying to say is that stretch cavity is the least of your concerns when dealing with handguns. A hole is a hole, and the bigger the better.
Over. It's already been proven more times than it needs to be that stretch cavity from a handgun is a moot point.
WRONG no one has proved it does not work. In fact all those stopped by the 357 mag with 12 grain jhp's would beg to differ. Stretch cavity is more important and the only ones who don't believe that are ignorant Faklerites.
PAT
WRONG no one has proved it does not work. In fact all those stopped by the 357 mag with 12 grain jhp's would beg to differ. Stretch cavity is more important and the only ones who don't believe that are ignorant Faklerites.
PAT
To get back on the topic a little...
I have to agree that sometimes it's important to have a bigger gun than your usual CCW. For a go-anywhere, easy to conceal, handgun we are often forced to compromise perceived 'stopping-power' or 'threat' with factors such as weight, size, bulk, and carry options. The Taurus 85 is a great CCW gun but it may not provide the greatest stopping power and (dare I say it?) intimidation. A good solution would be to buy a big-bore snub revolver as others have already mentioned. Taurus makes a decent revolver for a good price and is an acceptable alternative to S&W. They also make a greater variety of styles and calibers than Ruger. In this situation, their models 605, 617, 445, or 450 would work well. Another solution would be to keep the CCW gun that you are comfortable with strictly as a concealed weapon and stash a bigger, meaner gun in your car or home. I like the Taurus 608 (.357 Mag) with a 4 inch barrel and stainless finish as my 'car' gun. It's too big and heavy for CCW really, but offers greater power (and accuracy) than the 85 and it bumps the whole intimidation factor up a notch. Hopefully, you'll never have to do more than draw or point it.
I have to agree that sometimes it's important to have a bigger gun than your usual CCW. For a go-anywhere, easy to conceal, handgun we are often forced to compromise perceived 'stopping-power' or 'threat' with factors such as weight, size, bulk, and carry options. The Taurus 85 is a great CCW gun but it may not provide the greatest stopping power and (dare I say it?) intimidation. A good solution would be to buy a big-bore snub revolver as others have already mentioned. Taurus makes a decent revolver for a good price and is an acceptable alternative to S&W. They also make a greater variety of styles and calibers than Ruger. In this situation, their models 605, 617, 445, or 450 would work well. Another solution would be to keep the CCW gun that you are comfortable with strictly as a concealed weapon and stash a bigger, meaner gun in your car or home. I like the Taurus 608 (.357 Mag) with a 4 inch barrel and stainless finish as my 'car' gun. It's too big and heavy for CCW really, but offers greater power (and accuracy) than the 85 and it bumps the whole intimidation factor up a notch. Hopefully, you'll never have to do more than draw or point it.
MellowMikey
New member
I'm gonna sit back and watch this one... This argument is always good for a laugh. 
Mikey
Mikey
juliet charley
New member
PAT, PAT, PAT
"Penitration is not the last word in stopping power in fact its of little importance once 9 inches is reached. The average person is 9.5 inches thick the organs are at 4.5 inches a load that gives 10 inches is more than enough 12 is ok much over 15 is down right stupid and will get you sued assuming the round you fire actually stops the bad guy flip a coin. "
Have you ever heard of a couple of FBI Agents named Grogan and Dove, or a bad guy named Michael Platt? Grogan and Dove are dead (and several other agents wounded) by Michael Platt because ammunition worked exactly like you propose.
"Penitration is not the last word in stopping power in fact its of little importance once 9 inches is reached. The average person is 9.5 inches thick the organs are at 4.5 inches a load that gives 10 inches is more than enough 12 is ok much over 15 is down right stupid and will get you sued assuming the round you fire actually stops the bad guy flip a coin. "
Have you ever heard of a couple of FBI Agents named Grogan and Dove, or a bad guy named Michael Platt? Grogan and Dove are dead (and several other agents wounded) by Michael Platt because ammunition worked exactly like you propose.
Sigh.
Pat, where in the heck did you come up with velocities of 650 fps for a typical .44 spec. load? Out of my 696, I'm thinking Gold Dot reloads push about 900 fps easily, making .45 auto power levels. But no need to reload, just visit Cor-Bon's site.
And as far as hunting with .44 spec. NO, you don't have to reload Jr. magnums to get one to kill a deer. Ever read anything by Elmer Keith? A suitable bullet (240 gr. jhp) at medium velocity (in this case, 900 - 1000 fps) will do just fine given good placement at close range. Unfortunately, your beloved .357 mag., with all its "crush cavity" and "expansion", only causes deer to smirk and run off, not even leaving enough blood for adequate tracking.
And lastly Pat, since it is winter and all, what are you going to do when your magic hollow points holes plug up with someone's leather coat, and they don't expand? Guess there won't be much crush cavity then, huh? Bet that measly old "75 percent" .44 will start looking pretty good, huh?
Pat, where in the heck did you come up with velocities of 650 fps for a typical .44 spec. load? Out of my 696, I'm thinking Gold Dot reloads push about 900 fps easily, making .45 auto power levels. But no need to reload, just visit Cor-Bon's site.
And as far as hunting with .44 spec. NO, you don't have to reload Jr. magnums to get one to kill a deer. Ever read anything by Elmer Keith? A suitable bullet (240 gr. jhp) at medium velocity (in this case, 900 - 1000 fps) will do just fine given good placement at close range. Unfortunately, your beloved .357 mag., with all its "crush cavity" and "expansion", only causes deer to smirk and run off, not even leaving enough blood for adequate tracking.
And lastly Pat, since it is winter and all, what are you going to do when your magic hollow points holes plug up with someone's leather coat, and they don't expand? Guess there won't be much crush cavity then, huh? Bet that measly old "75 percent" .44 will start looking pretty good, huh?