DUI checkpoints: another example of how they can be abused

I wonder how it would have played out if the dude had just rolled down his window when told to. I got the feeling the kid was trying to **** the cop off and it worked. They generally don't like legal lessons from civilians in my expierence.
I don't think DUI checkpoints are right to begin with. The police are pulling people over and harrassing them without probable cause. I get that this is all Pollitically Correct but find it hard to believe it is legal, even thought it is done all the time all over the country.
When faced with one of these types of incidents I tend to just follow orders and get it over with. I have found that as long as you are doing nothing illegal and are courteous to the officers you are out of there pretty quick. I'd be willing to bet that cops don't care for this part of their job either.
 
The key word is "lawful". Care to cite any law that makes this particular order lawful ? Simply because a LEO gave the order ?

Well when you refuse to roll down your window at a D.W.I. check point so an officer can not plainly smell your person your well into reasonable suspision territory. At that point you have made yourself subject to terry stop rules.

Lesson is if you don't want to be treated like a d!(k don't act like one.
 
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1989/1989_88_1897

Michigan Dept. of State Police vs. Sitz is controlling in this case. SCOTUS held 6-3 that DUI or sobriety checkpoints are not unconstitutional if conducted within certain very specific guidelines. Whether you agree with this decision or not (I don't), it is the law of the land until SCOTUS determines otherwise.

That said, the fact that a sobriety or DUI checkpoint is presumably constitutional doesn't mean that 4A violations can't and don't occur - and here, in my opinion, that's exactly what does transpire.

There's also, in my opinion, a case to be made for tampering with evidence/obstruction of justice when the officer searching the vehicle tampers with the video camera.
 

based on that article, the fact that he was not charged means to me he was not required to roll the window down further. I don't see why the officer could not determine alcohol use with the window partially down... Kalbaugh's actions were clearly totally sober, in the video the officer admitted to knowing he was not breaking the law....

I have to side with those that feel this was a total violation of constitutional rights. I also agree that this kind of activism makes people more aware of their rights.
 
Its better if the window is up 3/4 of the way for all involved including the officer. The window provides a partition of safety. The driver cant lunge out at the officer and its a bit more difficult for the driver to pull a firearm on the officer. Try pulling a firearm with the window up. You wouldnt be able to stick your hand out the window.

The officer believes its better to have the window all the way down but I beg to differ. He doesnt need it down.

In any event there are civil courts which can decide on this matter. My opinion is that officers should be held personally responsible rather then holding the tax payers responsible.
 
kxkid wrote:

The key word is "lawful". Care to cite any law that makes this particular order lawful ? Simply because a LEO gave the order ?

Yes if a cop says to roll your window down more you must. Go ask any lawyer they will tell you the same that is a lawful order.


Really ? That depends on what constitutes an "alert" The dog in the video clearly is following a command.

You obviously have no idea how a k9 search is done on a car. There is a high and low search and the only way the dog knows what to do is by following the handlers hand.

Officers do not explain to you what the dog's reaction will be if he "alerts" on something so, anything could be considered a "hit".

We are not required to. But most dogs sit since departments do not like the liability of the scratching hit. And what I say in the video where the driver said the dog "hit" was not a hit at all and reason is the dog did not act like he wanted to go in, just jumped up to where the handler said to and did not smell anything.. If I saw video from the outside I could tell you if it was.

This particular "checkpoint" has existed in that area for years and, pops up at random. I drive through this area regularly, had my entire truck searched for no reason other than the "alert" of a dog. They found nothing because, there was nothing to find. I filed a complaint but, nothing has changed.

Hopefully this video will cast some needed light on this "checkpoint".

There are times where the dog is having a bad day and will alert to food. You never know. But like one person said the kid set this up and got what he wanted. Only thing is he doesn't let you know is that he did everything correct to get this reaction. If he just rolled the window down he would have been fine. Also its a DUI check point a lot of drunks try to keep the smell of the alcohol in the car by only rolling the window down partly, so you see my point about it being a lawful order?
 
I just looked at the video again and the officer was saying to the officer the reason for the search was the fact the driver asserted his rights so this was a punishment more or less.
 
Everything I read basically says that you must do what a LEO says to do unless the action ordered is itself unlawful. There are, of course, exceptions and specifics that have been clarified by courts but, generally speaking, it seems that a "Do this..." is a "lawful order".
--BP

Also its a DUI check point a lot of drunks try to keep the smell of the alcohol in the car by only rolling the window down partly, so you see my point about it being a lawful order?
--kx

And people conceal weapons illegally under their clothes, it doesn't automatically mean an order to lift one's shirt is lawful and constitutes a reasonable search barring any other evidence of wrong doing. The pedestrian equivalent of a dui checkpoint was the NYC stop and frisk program(instead of drunk driving being the motivating factor, it's concealed weapons)...they were stopping lots of people, just for being at certain areas at certain times, so then by the previous logic, this was lawful, the officers told them to do something, which in itself wasn't an illegal, so it was a lawful order... A further parallel is that the officers ability to go observe and question someone on the street is not in question, but rather how far they are allowed to go, and with what does a person have to comply. Stop and frisk was ruled unconstitutional, and lower courts decision has not yet been challenged.

Similarly, one of the issues here surrounding the idea of lawful or unlawful order, specifically in this case, is that SCOTUS did their normal extreme specificity in their ruling in the Michigan case. They explicitly stated that the seizure/detention is ok and that questioning and observation are ok. But remained silent as to what exactly is still considered reasonable under these circumstances. They did not answer the question whether the additional intrusion into someones private space afforded by to what degree a window is rolled down constitutes a search, they didnt address whether that's a form of self-incrimination, and they left the details of what a "proper" checkpoint is up to the states. Additionally, they did not specify whether a person must comply with the questions and observations, just that they may be conducted.

Without knowing the TN law and constitution its pretty difficult to make these determinations. However, based on the Michigan decision, a partially rolled down window does not with an officers ability to communicate with the person inside, which then hinges on does it interfere with the ability to observe. So assuming the officer is only asking for the window to be rolled down so that he/she may look for evidence beyond a barrier, arguably a search, is it a search and is that search reasonable? Is there an expectation of privacy in ones car, from olfactory intrusion? Katz v US would imply that you have an expectation of auditory privacy in your car, so does that extend to smells? It is also worthy to note that Katz spells out that physical intrusion is not necessary for a search to have occurred, so even though the officer doesn't physically intrude into the space, a search could have still occurred.

So is it a lawful order? Does that order, lawful or not, constitute a search? I don't know, but it is dangerous to assume just because an officer says something that it is lawful or that you must comply.
 
Let me clarify some things. There are some things you have to do when an officer says to do them but there are other things you dont have to do. The officer will not tell you which things you have to do or dont have to do.

An example, when an officer says to put that pistol down you have to do that. When an officer says you need to walk that line during the drunk driving stop you dont need to do that in many states and its best you decline.

The best advice in that regard is to research and go through the possible scenarios. There are things which are required you follow and other things you are not required. In any event the officer isnt going to educate you and they will probably give you a hard time if you dont do what they say making it harder to distinguish what is required and whats not. I am all for a law which makes the officer inform someone whats required and whats not required. That would make our land more free in my opinion.
 
So can some of you legal eagles explain why the officer couldn't be arrested on the spot for violation of constitutional rights? There's a few that are in jail for constitutional violations but usually when someone dies involving official oppression. Just curious.
 
So can some of you legal eagles explain why the officer couldn't be arrested on the spot for violation of constitutional rights?
Those things are generally civil matters, and not handled by arrest.
 
I am all for a law which makes the officer inform someone whats required and whats not required. That would make our land more free in my opinion.

Ah, let me see, where have I heard that solution before?
Oh, all we need is ... more laws.
Right there is the solution to any problem. We just need more laws.
dc
 
From the Constitution of the State of Tennessee :

Article 1 Section 7.
That the people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers
and possessions, from unreasonable searches and seizures; and that general
warrants, whereby an officer may be commanded to search suspected places,
without evidence of the fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not
named, whose offences are not particularly described and supported by evi-
dence, are dangerous to liberty and ought not be granted.

Additionally, (IANAL) The Tennessee Code Annotated, recognizes that a persons : Home, property, business, and vehicle, are considered the same under the law, at least for purposes of self defense. ( I can find no other section where this distinction is excluded for any reason, including the motor vehicle section)

Let me ask a question of those who are advocating the officers here: If an officer comes to your front door, and knocks, you answer the door and, open it just enough to stick out your head and communicate with him, and he "orders" you to open the door fully, are you going to comply ? How about if he "orders" you to let him in your foyer ?
 
There is a test you should use to know when you should follow the officers orders. If the officer has a pistol, taser, pepper spray or baton drawn and is shouting orders then obey the commands given absolutely. It can later be argued you submitted to the orders under duress.

If it seems like a polite engagement then you can verbally decline doing so in a civilized fashion but you cant physically decline. When declining always speak loudly for the officers recording device.

If the officer comes to your door and it seems like a polite engagement then verbally decline. If the officer is pointing a weapon or forces their way in then you have to submit.

There are situations which the law mandates a certain action to be taken when an officer asks. For example, an officer approaches and stops a concealed carry permit holder. In some states its mandated the permit holder inform the officer of the firearm and permit.

Research and go through scenarios...I might add its best to go through scenarios with a local defense attorney. They may charge you like 300 dollars but thats 300 well spent dollars. It will cost a lot more if you do the wrong things during one of these encounters.
 
Last edited:
The kid is a patriot.

Why do we have illegal searches ? Because people submit to them.

If the majority of the population did not submit to them we would not have them.
 
The thing I find troubling is that we are arguing over how we should behave at police checkpoints in a free country.

We should be ashamed that we accept the presence of such checkpoints as compatible with our liberty.
 
Yes if a cop says to roll your window down more you must. Go ask any lawyer they will tell you the same that is a lawful order.

I asked, It's not. It is at my discretion how much I roll down the window in order to communicate effectively,If he can see me clearly, and we can communicate verbally and, documents passed freely, that is all that is required. beyond that is an unreasonable request.

You obviously have no idea how a k9 search is done on a car.

I digress, and am certainly no expert. I see that you seem to qualify yourself as one;

I worked a lot hand in hand with my departments k9's,

And you admit to the following:

They are trained on orders

There is a high and low search and the only way the dog knows what to do is by following the handlers hand.

So, the dog only searches where he's told, and only on orders ?

You also said;

And what I say in the video where the driver said the dog "hit" was not a hit at all and reason is the dog did not act like he wanted to go in, just jumped up to where the handler said to and did not smell anything.

Yet, the officers claimed it was and, as a result, searched his vehicle on the premise of "probable cause" of a "hit" that, by your own expert opinion, was not ?
 
Last edited:
I asked, It's not. It is at my discretion how much I roll down the window in order to communicate effectively,If he can see me clearly, and we can communicate verbally and, documents passed freely, that is all that is required. beyond that is an unreasonable request.



I digress, and am certainly no expert. I see that you seem to qualify yourself as one;



And you admit to the following:





So, the dog only searches where he's told, and only on orders ?

You also said;



Yet, the officers claimed it was and, as a result, searched his vehicle on the premise of "probable cause" of a "hit" that, by your own expert opinion, was not ?

They said there was a hit on the vehicle, the kid is the one that said when the dog jumped on the window was a hit. So tell me this. I had a drunk lady that refused to roll down her passenger window because she did not feel safe and her right as a women but said she would on the driver side which was right next to the highway. I am sorry but that's just like someone not rolling down their window all they way. I gave a order and she refused.
 
kxkid wrote;
They said there was a hit on the vehicle, the kid is the one that said when the dog jumped on the window was a hit. So tell me this. I had a drunk lady that refused to roll down her passenger window because she did not feel safe and her right as a women but said she would on the driver side which was right next to the highway. I am sorry but that's just like someone not rolling down their window all they way. I gave a order and she refused.

I am sorry but, I do not understand your response. Can you re-phrase, perhaps I am missing something ?
 
Back
Top