A milliradian is an SI derived unit for angular measurement which is defined as a thousandth of a radian (0.001 radian).
Drop versus holdover
- Thread starter tpcollins
- Start date
bamaranger
New member
Zero
All this buzz about Mils and dots... oh my!
The OP's generic question leaves room for a broad range of response, and we've certainly gone there. It would be nice to know what type of rifle and sight system we are trying to discuss, and it's intended use. Such details guide responses and keep the thread from wandering.
There are many folks who zero their rifles "on" at 100 yds and hunt/shoot effectively, typically not shooting past that distance, as terrain and cover limit shot opportunities. If circumstances indicate that shots further than 100 will occur more frequently, a 2-3" high zero will maximize the rifles trajectory and allow holding "on" for deer size targets out to 250 yrs or so. Before twirly scopes and the fascination with sniping and long range shooting at big game, this was common practice.
To effectively hold high or vary a sight picture to hit on past established "on" zero, one must know that their rifle/load does in fact perform in that manner, or minimally , is producing the velocities claimed, with that specific projectile. A RN will not exhibit the same trajectory at distance as tipped BT by way of extreme example. Does the rifle in fact generate 2650 fps (example) at the muzzle, or is that relying on a published figure. My chronograph proves factory figures and many of my loads come far short of printed data. Result...slower, lower loads.
Even when drop and holdover can be accurately d determined, the issues of accurate range estimation and target ID are significant at distance. And any distance shooter will state foremost that WIND is their biggest concern.
Finally, don't rely solely on a short range 25-30 yd zero to predict down range performance. I realize that many do not have access to all but short range opportunities. But at first chance verify at distance. Reversing the procees, zeroing at distance, then shooting a 25 yd target, will allow a short range verification afield should trouble arise.
All this buzz about Mils and dots... oh my!
The OP's generic question leaves room for a broad range of response, and we've certainly gone there. It would be nice to know what type of rifle and sight system we are trying to discuss, and it's intended use. Such details guide responses and keep the thread from wandering.
There are many folks who zero their rifles "on" at 100 yds and hunt/shoot effectively, typically not shooting past that distance, as terrain and cover limit shot opportunities. If circumstances indicate that shots further than 100 will occur more frequently, a 2-3" high zero will maximize the rifles trajectory and allow holding "on" for deer size targets out to 250 yrs or so. Before twirly scopes and the fascination with sniping and long range shooting at big game, this was common practice.
To effectively hold high or vary a sight picture to hit on past established "on" zero, one must know that their rifle/load does in fact perform in that manner, or minimally , is producing the velocities claimed, with that specific projectile. A RN will not exhibit the same trajectory at distance as tipped BT by way of extreme example. Does the rifle in fact generate 2650 fps (example) at the muzzle, or is that relying on a published figure. My chronograph proves factory figures and many of my loads come far short of printed data. Result...slower, lower loads.
Even when drop and holdover can be accurately d determined, the issues of accurate range estimation and target ID are significant at distance. And any distance shooter will state foremost that WIND is their biggest concern.
Finally, don't rely solely on a short range 25-30 yd zero to predict down range performance. I realize that many do not have access to all but short range opportunities. But at first chance verify at distance. Reversing the procees, zeroing at distance, then shooting a 25 yd target, will allow a short range verification afield should trouble arise.
For all the miliradian fans, if you think adjustable metallic sights should also adjust in milliradian clicks, what thread pitch, clicks per revolution and radius should be used?
For SMOA, the numbers are 40 tpi and 12 clicks giving 1/4 SMOA for a 30 inch radius because most USA bullseye target scoring rings are spaced in inches.
For SMOA, the numbers are 40 tpi and 12 clicks giving 1/4 SMOA for a 30 inch radius because most USA bullseye target scoring rings are spaced in inches.
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Let's go metric, shall we?
30 inches is 762mm. 0.76mm in 762mm is 1 mil. M6 fine pitch will do. 10 clicks per turn like in a M16A3. 0.1mil a click.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
You got the real deal even in 1990 if you pay enough. All this may be new to the Americans, but it has been around for a pretty while.Correct.
Mil/Mil = a Mil reticle with elevation/windage turrets calibrated in Mil clicks, not MOA clicks.
It’s 2022 people.
Mil/MOA is sooo 1990s.
BTW, I am a Yank.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
tpc, lots of good info here, from a lot of experienced shooters sharing their methods of hitting the mark. Whatever prompted all these good posts, was certainly a good question! Whether you know it or not! 
I'll just add that it's an important thing to know the point-blank range on whatever rifle you're using, for whatever purpose. My elk rifle, an '06, has a PBR, FOR ME, from 0 yards to a bit over 150. I've shot/hunted enough through the years to have a built-in confident mental knowledge of distance within that yardage. After that, when in doubt, I use my range finder if I have the opportunity and the time to use it. I use a fixed powered, duplexed haired 6X scope and leave the settings where they always stay, once I know I'm zeroed to where I want to be. This remains the same, year after year; I've got a zero that serves me best, and I leave it there.
On a shot while hunting, I use any rest I can use to steady myself. Sitting, kneeling and prone when using my daypack come into play when I've seen the game first and can use any of these methods to make a good, clean killing shot. I'm also a confident user of "Kentucky windage," too.
I'm very fortunate where I live to be able to shoot at any range I wish to practice at, and I've limited my shots to just a bit beyond 325 yds. I practice shooting over my daypack at this range every year prior to the hunting season to make sure everything in the scope setting and handload has remained the same as I like it. At this range, 325 yds., my '06 will print the shots of my reloads at right at 17" low (+- a bit depending on me and the weather on the day). That means to me I can still take some hair on the backline of a mature sized elk and still be in the kill zone. To this day, the farthest shot I've ever taken to kill an elk was ranged at 262 yds. I easily took "hair" a bit below the backline, and that's what practiced "Kentucky" does for you at the moment of the shot. You mentally know when to squeeze when the horizontal sets right. On a windless day, the vertical runs up along the backline of the front leg. If you can practice at your own range distance limit, you're so much more ahead of the game, and many questions are answered for you (IMO).
When I first started my resident hunting experiences in Wyoming, over 40 years ago, I met a shooter/hunter friend who said something I never forgot. This was back in the days before anyone had, or had ever really even heard of, a range finder. He said when in doubt of the range, always take a bit of hair on the backline (no daylight, ever). That's still good advice, and that's knowing what you and your rifle's limitations are, and that comes with practice.
And now, these days, I've always got my range finder with me on a hunt. What a great thing for a hunter, along with some practiced "Kentucky Windage" knowledge when needed to be put into play.
Just ramblings here from an old guy, and hope some of this helps. Good thought-provoking post, tpcollins, whether I knew what the question was or not!
I'll just add that it's an important thing to know the point-blank range on whatever rifle you're using, for whatever purpose. My elk rifle, an '06, has a PBR, FOR ME, from 0 yards to a bit over 150. I've shot/hunted enough through the years to have a built-in confident mental knowledge of distance within that yardage. After that, when in doubt, I use my range finder if I have the opportunity and the time to use it. I use a fixed powered, duplexed haired 6X scope and leave the settings where they always stay, once I know I'm zeroed to where I want to be. This remains the same, year after year; I've got a zero that serves me best, and I leave it there.
On a shot while hunting, I use any rest I can use to steady myself. Sitting, kneeling and prone when using my daypack come into play when I've seen the game first and can use any of these methods to make a good, clean killing shot. I'm also a confident user of "Kentucky windage," too.
I'm very fortunate where I live to be able to shoot at any range I wish to practice at, and I've limited my shots to just a bit beyond 325 yds. I practice shooting over my daypack at this range every year prior to the hunting season to make sure everything in the scope setting and handload has remained the same as I like it. At this range, 325 yds., my '06 will print the shots of my reloads at right at 17" low (+- a bit depending on me and the weather on the day). That means to me I can still take some hair on the backline of a mature sized elk and still be in the kill zone. To this day, the farthest shot I've ever taken to kill an elk was ranged at 262 yds. I easily took "hair" a bit below the backline, and that's what practiced "Kentucky" does for you at the moment of the shot. You mentally know when to squeeze when the horizontal sets right. On a windless day, the vertical runs up along the backline of the front leg. If you can practice at your own range distance limit, you're so much more ahead of the game, and many questions are answered for you (IMO).
When I first started my resident hunting experiences in Wyoming, over 40 years ago, I met a shooter/hunter friend who said something I never forgot. This was back in the days before anyone had, or had ever really even heard of, a range finder. He said when in doubt of the range, always take a bit of hair on the backline (no daylight, ever). That's still good advice, and that's knowing what you and your rifle's limitations are, and that comes with practice.
And now, these days, I've always got my range finder with me on a hunt. What a great thing for a hunter, along with some practiced "Kentucky Windage" knowledge when needed to be put into play.
Just ramblings here from an old guy, and hope some of this helps. Good thought-provoking post, tpcollins, whether I knew what the question was or not!