Drinking the libertarian Kool-aid.

"It would be great if Americans would drink some libertarian Kool-Aid for a change. Unlike the fascist neocon Kool-Aid of the mainstream GOP and the cultural Marxist Kool-Aid of the Democrats, libertarian Kool-Aid isn't poison -- it's the antidote.

Unfortunately, the libertarian position is almost never heard in the mainstream media. Americans have been conditioned to believe that any point of view that's not endorsed by the mainstream of either major party is somehow illegitimate or "kooky." This is a reflection of the herd instinct that governs how the vast majority of people behave. Few people are willing to point out that the Emperor wears no clothes.

The sad fact of the matter is that most Americans don't really want freedom. In fact, they don't even know what real freedom is anymore. The so-called "conservatives" would cheer if the burning of their beloved flag were outlawed in violation of the First Amendment. The "liberals" would cheer if "hate speech" were outlawed. Yet if you were to ask any of these people if they believed in freedom, they'd say, "Of course!"

Similarly, I have no doubt that over 95% of Americans see no irony whatsoever in the naming of the Freedom Tower in NYC -- even though NYC is essentially a prison camp. Paramilitary police (wardens) parade around with M4s and keep a watchful eye on citizens (inmates) who aren't even allowed to have puny handguns. High-tech electronic surveillance is ubiquitous. (Never mind that none of those so-called "security measures" would have stopped the WTC attacks. They wouldn't even stop a truck bomb tomorrow.) Oh, but you can vote for which Mayor you want to rule over you, watch whatever you want to on cable TV, and even shop at the stores of your choice; therefore, you must be "free."

Let's face it, folks: most Americans are cowards and sheep who value the illusion of safety more than freedom. No right is too cheap to toss out if it increases our chances of living forever. That's why libertarianism isn't more popular: Joe Sixpack and Sally Soccermom are just fine with having a police state if it means that their odds of being blown up by a terrorist are lowered from one in 40 million to one in 50 million.

We can't have a "land of the free" unless it's also the "home of the brave" -- and we sure as hell don't have the latter. DDude is right: freedom in America is doomed."

Best post i have read this year.

i was a Democrat for a few decades and drunk their nasty Kool-Aid. Been a Republican for a few more decades and do not like their poison Kool-Aid any better. National politicians are all about feel good stuff and five second sound bits, nothing more. We have become a nation of gutless wonders.



US Army
M/Sgt, Retired
 
Lest we get wrapped around the axle about definitions -

Capitalism is not a philosophy or an ideology. It is a broad description of an economic condition.
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This is good. The key thing to remember about an IDEOLOGY is its aim is to get human behavior to conform to the fixed idea. When the people fail to comply the ideologues get out the big stick of state power to make them conform to the ideal solution.

That is the exact thing the libertarians are not saying. We will make you what we want you to be. (cue eerie music) :eek:
 
BigG, I think that you do not understand. As a libertarian, I do not want to force you to do anything. (That kind of goes against the whole principle of libertarianism.) I just want government to quit forcing me to do what it wants me to do.
 
it seems that according to the definition of ideology some are putting forward, that the founding fathers were ideologues until they actually instituted their ideology. this definition makes no sense, especially when it is supposedly used as a less than positive description. everything is an ideology until it is instituted. so basically our founding fathers were silly people with silly ideas...until they enacted them. im sorry, but that description seems sorely lacking.

i would identify myself as a libertarian (small l). i have very libertarian tendencies, but i try to take each issue as it comes and dont rely on any party platform to form my positions. i havent really even researched the Libertarian party, but i know i differ from them on at least two things: immigration and abortion.
 
miboso said:
I just want government to quit forcing me to do what it wants me to do.
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but isnt that his point? when someone wants to force you to do something, making them not force you to do something is forcing them to conform to what you want them to do...or something. reminds me of doublethink.
 
Steelcore,

Thanks for fixing my analogy!

The libertarian philosophy in a nutshell is that you have the right to do whatsoever you may want so long as you do not infringe upon the similar rights of others. In essence, your rights STOP at the bodies and property of others.

"Forcing" others to leave us alone is in no way infringing upon their rights because they DO NOT have rights to our life, our bodies, our property, etc.

And we realize that if we as individuals do not have rights that intrude upon the bodies or property of others, then we cannot rightfully empower any other entity (in the case, the government) do do it either.
 
Arabia: Here's a quote from one of your links.

Karl Marx held that society could not be transformed from the capitalist mode of production to the advanced communist mode of production all at once, but required a transitional period which Marx described as the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, the first stage of communism. The communist society Marx envisioned emerging from capitalism has never been implemented, and it remains theoretical; Marx, in fact, commented very little on what communist society would actually look like.
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Note the word transitional and the last sentence that say Marx never described what Communism would look like.
There have been many variations on the communist theme. The most prominent is/was Marxist-Leninist communism. Many people mistake this off shoot of Marx as being Marx's end game or what he envisioned the Communist state would look like. Whether Marx would have agreed with Lenin or not we don't know because he died when Lenin was 12 years old.
Many people believe that Marx didn't mean for the dictatorship of the proletariat to continue indefinitely.

If Capitalism is a philosophy then name the text book that outlines its principles. What is capitalism's epistemology, Ayn Rand doesn't count.
Name the Philosophers of the capitalist school of philosophy.
It's popular to name Adam Smith the father of capitalism but capitalism existed before Smith. The meta term "Market Place" existed as a real thing eons before the idea capitalism existed. Capitalism existed in the heart of the USSR. For it to be a philosophy it would have had to have a creation moment.
Capitalism is at best an ideology at worst a theology.
Economists don't label themselves capitalists. The might call themselves Austrians or participatory-economists. Those are economic philosophies. Most call them selves Keynesian of various flavors. And they don't think of that as a philosophy.

Over the last sixty years people have used the term capitalism to denote a philosophy. But that's pretty much a mish mosh created so that the West could contrast itself to the Soviets during the cold war.
 
Just Curious Thallub

Have you ever been to NYC? or a prison camp?

even though NYC is essentially a prison camp. Paramilitary police (wardens) parade around with M4s and keep a watchful eye on citizens (inmates) who aren't even allowed to have puny handguns. High-tech electronic surveillance is ubiquitous. (Never mind that none of those so-called "security measures" would have stopped the WTC attacks. They wouldn't even stop a truck bomb tomorrow.) Oh, but you can vote for which Mayor you want to rule over you, watch whatever you want to on cable TV, and even shop at the stores of your choice; therefore, you must be "free."
Click to expand...
 
The libertarian philosophy in a nutshell is that you have the right to do whatsoever you may want so long as you do not infringe upon the similar rights of others. In essence, your rights STOP at the bodies and property of others.
Click to expand...

BINGO. That is exactly why it will never catch on though... The majority of people are busybodies who want to tell their neighbors what to do, believe, pay and play. They want "their representatives" to enforce their will on their fellow man. Then when the power shifts to the other party with different agendas they cry out about the infringement of their civil liberties... There are huge segments of this society who want to outlaw racism as an idea, homosexuality, Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, Pornography (per their definition of the day) and every other type of ism, ity and aphy out their. It could have absolutely no impact on their own lives or that of another person who chooses to have nothing to do with it but most people feel they have a responsibility to tell others how to behave beyond the simple matters of no stealing, killing or raping.

Libertarians also believe you are in the end responsible for your own action. You can't blame your parents from 20 years ago, the gov't, social class, race or any other factor for a decision YOU made. Needless to say that is not a popular concept at present.

Some may think it a good idea the gov't forces people to deal with each other. I would like to know how you would feel about being forced to give an apartment connected to your home to a pedophile? It is not such a far off concept. All that it would take is declaring pedophilia a disease; a concept with some pretty broad support already. Then it is a matter of the Americans with Disabilities Act coming into play... It doesn't matter that you have two kids under 10 years old, the gov't has been given the right to dictate who you must rent to. This scenario is only possible because people gave this power to the gov't. Already protected status is given to trans gender individuals is some jurisdictions. I am not saying the life style is right or wrong but should the gov't be allowed to force you to rent your apartment attached to the home in which your children live to such an individual?
 
NYC is not a prison camp but your rights are severely curtailed there. When they were running bag checks at the subways you were allowed to refuse and leave. Of course NYPD officers were caught saying they viewed doing so was "suspicious" and therefore grounds for being stopped and searched...

You can buy certain guns if the NYPD decides you are allowed. Be prepared to spend lots of money and if you want to carry one you need to be a celebrity, rich or politically connected.

NYPD is not a prison camp but the concepts of freedom, self reliance, and minimal gov't interference are long dead there.
 
I find that drinking the libertarian Kool-Aid much more satisfing than the neo-con stuff.....:cool:
(not forced to drink it....and its a hell of alot more cheaper.....)
 
If drinking Libertarian Kool-aid means freedom, pass me another cup!

Mabey I just dont get it, but I dont see how the libertarian bashers even have a foot to stand on. More often than not, their arguements come down to subltle semantics, or a candidates oppenion on historical events.
 
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