Drawing but NOT Firing in Self Defense

I read these self defense discussion threads and get the impression we
"Make this hard," too hard for a possible split second decision.
AND its mostly theoretical with very little practical experiences/examples.

Seems to me we are missing one of the most valuable experiences - WWPD.
The police are trained in these very situations. And collectively have a lot of real life experiences verbal altercations of all types.

Now , I'm not advocating in any way that we act as police!!!
But to understand how the local police are trained, the "trigger points" (pun intended) that they themselves use to step-up their use of force would seem to be a good measure for us to know and to use if necessary for your own legal defense.
 
I'm in Missouri not NY, but I'll recount the only situation where I've produced my daily carry which happened a couple of years ago, I was genuinely surprised by how it actually played out.

I had been right at a year without seeing or speaking to either of my sons. (Long story which needn't be told here, but basically I was forced into a divorce ten years ago that I did not want and the mother of my sons has done some unforgivable things in an attempt to destroy my relationship with them, thankfully unsuccessfully.)
The motivator for not having contact with them was a concerted effort on the part of their mother and her live in boyfriend.

I was on my way home from work and stopped at a Walgreens drug store near the house to pick up a couple of Arizona Sweet Teas for a buck. Walked in and to the cooler, grabbed them and walked back to check out. There are two check out isles opposite one another, and I realized that my oldest son and his mother's BF were in the isle behind me. Surprised since I'd not seen nor spoken with him for so long, I turned and said, "Well hello" to my son, at which point the BF simply exploded verbally yelling every curse word that I know at me at the top of his lungs. In disbelief I asked the BF what the hell his problem was, mind you this is the FIRST and only time that I have ever met the man face to face, Doing so only escalated his behavior. Without looking at me my son quietly said, " It's best just to leave Dad". I knew he was right because this fella was obviously wacko, and shaking my head I turned and apologized to the clerk and paid for my tea and left.

I got into my service van and began driving across the parking lot toward the exit at the traffic light in order to easily make a left turn with the afternoon traffic, what I always do with it being a regular stop on my way home from work. As I was driving across the lot on the only path that I could, my son and the BF were walking out of the store and he continued cursing at me, I simply said, "I love you Jim" , to my son at which point the BF ran toward my service van in a fury. He reached my window which was down obviously, at about the time that I had to stop at the light which was red.

He immediately grabbed the door handle as I slapped the lock down with my elbow which prevented him from opening the door, and began screaming for me to get out of the van because he was going to kick my arse, cursing with every other word. He then attempted to reach through the open window to grab the interior door handle at which point I pushed him back, he grabbed my arm and lifted me off the seat and against the seat belt before I was able to wrench it away from him, like he was going to try to drag me through the open window.
That was when I reached into my shirt and withdrew my daily carry from under my left arm as I sat back down in the drivers seat. I DID NOT point the pistol at him, I simply withdrew it from the holster and laid it on my right thigh and said to him that he needed to back away from the van which he somewhat did, though he never stopped his rant. I then took my eyes off of him for only a split second to turn to see if the light had changed from red and at that point he lunged forward and punched me on the left side of my face.
He did not hit me that hard, but hard enough to send my Bluetooth flying from my right ear across the van. He disappeared around the back of the van almost before I could turn my head to see where he'd gone, I just caught a glimpse of him in the mirror doing so as I turned back from looking out the window to where he had just stood.
Fortunately the light had turned green and I simply drove away a little stunned to say the least.

There is a small park on the mile and a half drive on toward my home where most afternoons there is a Saint Charles County Sherriff's deputy hanging out. I pulled into the lot and along side of his patrol car and asked if I could speak with him. He stepped out of his car and up to the van as he asked what was up. I first told him that I wanted him to know that I held a CCW license and that there was a handgun in the van, he asked where, and I told him that it was now in the engine hub console tray, he disregarded it and asked me again what was up. I told him that I had just been assaulted I suppose more or less and he agreed that he could see that it looked as if I'd taken a blow to the left side of my face.
As I explained the situation that had just unfolded to him, my son and the BF drove past and I pointed the vehicle out to him. I explained everything that had happened and at which point I had produced my pistol. His only question was whether or not I had pointed it at him to which I responded no. He was very relaxed and matter of fact about it all and asked me to follow him back to Walgreens and to wait outside while he went in to verify my story. He came back out and said that they verified my account of what had happened in the store and asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I wasn't sure what I should do at that point. He then contacted Saint Peters police as the store was not actually in his jurisdiction but theirs.
Two St. Peters officers arrived and he recounted the incident to them before they spoke to me. Again I immediately told them that I did have a handgun in the van and once again they didn't really seem to care since I had not actually pointed the handgun at the BF.

(I had been more distraught than I can verbally express over not having had any contact with my sons in the previous year. The whole situation had devastated me and consumed my every waking thought all day every day. That whole year I could not reason out what was going on, until that incident, that day. My sons were literally terrified of this man, understandably after what I'd just witnessed.)

Having had time to think about it all, I told the officers that I did not wish to press charges because I was afraid of possible repercussions to my sons over doing so, but thought it important to document the incident. I was afraid what a future meeting with this nutbag could bring and I told them that. I told them that my fear was that the situation could and probably would escalate further the next time and I could see myself in a situation where I may actually have to shoot him. One of the St. Peters officers responded, "Oh don't do that, it makes for waaay too much paperwork!" Both officers and the deputy laughed aloud when he said it.

That was it. I had a handgun on my person, I produced the handgun in an altercation of sorts, but never pointed it at my 'assailant' though he did see it, and none of the three officers involved from two law enforcement agencies really seemed to care much if they cared at all beyond whether or not I pointed it at him.
I was more than a little struck by that, I mean I understand it I suppose, but it struck me that they just didn't really seem to care.

I have never been in a situation like that before in my life and never care to be in one again. That nutbag is gone from their lives and has been for a couple of years thanks to a protection order that their mother filed against him, though I still have fears that one day he'll reappear. Had I known then what I do know now about what was actually going on, I would probably be spending the remainder of my days behind bars and not have the amazing relationship that I do once again share with both of my sons. Part of me is grateful that I didn't know what I do know now, part of me wishes that I had.

Jim
 
So let's start with an overview of the law related to the threat or use of force in self defense.

The important thing to remember at the outset of any discussion of the use of force in self defense is that our society has, for hundreds of years, frowned on threatening another human or intentionally hurting or killing another human. Threatening someone or intentionally hurting or killing him is prima facie (on its face) a crime everywhere. However, our laws have long recognized that under certain limited circumstances a threat or an actual act of violence may be excused or justified.

You won't have the final say about whether your act of violence was excusable or justified self defense. That decision will be made by others after the fact -- the prosecutor and/or a grand jury and/or, if you're unlucky, the jury at your trial.

So let's take a general, high level overview of use-of-force law in the United States.

But first the usual caveats: (1) I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer; (2) This is not legal advice, but rather it's general information on a legal topic; and (3) this is intended as a general overview without reference to the laws of any particular State, and as such it doesn't consider specific state laws that might allow justification of a use of force in some circumstance not mentioned here.

Now let's look at the basic legal reality of the use of force in self defense.

  1. Our society takes a dim view of threatening or using force against and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human. In every State the threat or use of force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human is prima facie (on its face) a crime of one sort or another.

    • However, for hundreds of years our law has recognized that there are some circumstances in which such an intentional act of violence against another human might be legally justified.

    • Exactly what would be necessary to establish that violence against someone else was justified will depend on (1) the applicable law where the event takes place; and (2) exactly what happened and how it happened, which will have to be judged on the basis of evidence gathered after the fact.

    • Someone who initiated a conflict will almost never be able to legally justify an act of violence against another.

  2. The amount of force an actor may justifiably use in self defense will depend on the level of the threat.

    • Under the laws of most States, lethal force may be justified when a reasonable person in like circumstance would conclude that a use of lethal force is necessary to prevent the otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. And to establish that, the actor claiming justified use of lethal force would need to show that the person against whom the lethal force was used reasonably had --

      • Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm;

      • Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and

      • put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he had the intent to kill or cripple.

    • "Ability" doesn't necessarily require a weapon. Disparity of force, e. g., a large, young, strong person attacking a small, old, frail person, or force of numbers, could show "Ability."

    • "Opportunity" could be established by showing proximity, lack of barriers or the like.

    • "Jeopardy" (intent) could be inferred from overt acts (e. g., violent approach) and/or statements of intent.

    • Unless the standard justifying the use of lethal force is met, use of some lesser level of violence might be legally justified to prevent a harmful or offensive, unconsented to contact by another person.

    • A threat of force or the use of force may be legally excused or justified only for the purposes of stopping the threat. Once the threat has ended, the continued threat or use of force can no longer be excused or justified and may result in criminal (and civil) liability.

  3. If you have thus used violence against another person, your actions will be investigated as a crime, because on the surface that's what it is.

    • Sometimes there will be sufficient evidence concerning what happened and how it happened readily apparent to the police for the police and/or prosecutor to quickly conclude that your actions were justified. If that's the case, you will be quickly exonerated of criminal responsibility, although in many States you might have to still deal with a civil suit.

    • If the evidence is not clear, you may well be arrested and perhaps even charged with a criminal offense. If that happens you will need to affirmatively assert that you were defending yourself and put forth evidence that you at least prima facie satisfied the applicable standard justifying your act of violence.

    • Of course, if your use of force against another human took place in or immediately around your home, your justification for your use of violence could be more readily apparent or easier to establish -- maybe.

      • Again, it still depends on what happened and how it happened. For example, was the person you shot a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend, a business associate or relative? Did the person you shot forcibly break into your home or was he invited? Was the contact tumultuous from the beginning, or did things begin peaceably and turn violent, how and why?

      • In the case of a stranger forcibly breaking into your home, your justification for the use of lethal force would probably be obvious. The laws of most States provide some useful protections for someone attacked in his home, which protections make it easier and a more certain matter for your acts to be found justified.

      • It could however be another matter to establish your justification if you have to use force against someone you invited into your home in a social context which later turns violent.

      • It could also be another matter if you left the safety of your house to confront someone on your property.

  4. Good, general overviews of the topic can be found at UseofForce.us and in this booklet by Marty Hayes at the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.

  5. Sometimes a defensive use of lethal force will have grave consequences for the defender, even when ultimately exonerated. For example --

    • This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

    • Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

    • Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

    • Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

    • Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

    • Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

    • And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.

Now let's look at the issue of displaying a gun to intimidate, secure compliance or threaten.

We discussed in this thread the general issue of justifying a threat of force.

Basically displaying a weapon defensively is a matter of of legal justification.

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm, when done for the purposes of intimidation, or to secure compliance, or to convince someone to keep his distance, or in response to a perceived threat is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.
 
But to understand how the local police are trained, the "trigger points" (pun intended) that they themselves use to step-up their use of force would seem to be a good measure for us to know and to use if necessary for your own legal defense.
Sounds like good advice.
Hopefully we don't get so intimidated by the legal aspects of self defense that we forget the obvious - surviving the encounter.
The legalities won't matter if we're crippled or dead.
Ask any member of any police force about it.
 
Thanks guys. I think I got my answer. Obviously retreat is the best policy whenever possible. Calling the police too. My primary concern is if the guy escalates beyond and does Not allow those options due to aggression:/anger.
 
Im in florida also and say in the middle of the night I hear sounds in my garage. Go there and see a man trying to steal my property. Can I aim and keep my gun pointed at him until the police arrive?
 
You can detain him for the police, yes.

Hopefully, he will become compliant and docile, and not attack you or appear to reach for a weapon.
 
I definitely agree that the best course of action is a hasty retreat.
It's not going to be as easy at 68, with mild COPD. Maybe impossible.
But it's still the desired way out.

I try to avoid verbal altercations. Like the plague if I am carrying.

I'm willing to take a beating rather than use my gun, if I feel it's only going to be a beating. But that gets dangerous at my age. Deciding on a split second could be a difficult choice indeed. I hope I never have to make that choice.

As for the man leaving my garage or house with my belongings, he's welcome to them. I have insurance, and if he's leaving he's no threat to me.

With that said, I often feel the law is simply stacked against me if I'm ever forced to defend myself.

Too often, I see the legal opinion to just let the court sort it out. Sometimes that's the right way. But ruining someone's life so you don't have to do your job, or to advance your job, is just wrong.

I can't defend George Zimmerman as a person, but he didn't deserve what was done to him for political reasons.

I also remember a time when using your gun to scare a bad guy off was treated differently. I suspect out society was more willing to make a judgement in the interest of judgement.
 
I'm willing to take a beating rather than use my gun, if I feel it's only going to be a beating.
What is there about the concept of self defense that eludes you?
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them - John Wayne from the "The Shootist."
 
If someone wants to take a beating let them take a beating, just don't push for laws that force other people to have to take a beating too. We're not all tough, resilient studs.
 
The laws are already here, for some time. Not quite require people to take a beating, but verbal assault most likely.

Different times. You can't shoot someone because he insulted you. Self defense is a noble right, but it is also a terrible burdon to bear.

Turn the other cheek, the man said. There is wisdom in that teaching.

-TL
 
Having boxed two years in college, I'm pretty sure I can still take a punch, but there is no way a sixty-year-old can take a beating the way someone could at twenty.

And, if you are on the ground, you can be kicked to death in moments, just one good shot is all it will take to put you into permanent care or kill you. Don't think for one moment the assailant is going to defer to your age or give you a break for being knocked down.
 
The often overlooked part of "taking a beating" is that it IS an armed confrontation.

YOU have the gun right now, but during that "beating" he could very easily take that gun from you.

In every encounter im in, there IS a gun involved. Mine.
 
Every state is very different on this issue. All in all, its a grey area and one that is a case by case basis even though its usually defined by law. Dont pull your gun out unless you believe your life (or someone elses) is being threatened. If you can answer yes to the question 'was a life being threatened' then its probably reasonable to pull out and use your gun. Each case is different and each situation is different so there is no right answer unless you describe a situation...and even then the police/judge may take it differently.
 
Taking a beating? No, not happening.

I have broken noses, ribs, arms, jaws, cheek bones, eye sockets.
With feet, hands, head butt (Liverpool Kiss) in a five year period as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK.

Plus not working. All this in the early 1960s.

Now as an old chap, no, I am not taking any kind of a beating, thank you.

Lots of people have been killed with a punch in the throat. Or a fall on steps, stairs.

The good news is, I do not operate in the kind of places that this is a common occurrence anymore, thank the Lord.
 
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I can, and have walked away from confrontation to avoid violence. If that is not a possibility then the criteria for me is simple; am I or those in my care in danger of great bodily harm or death? If yes, whether presenting a weapon stops the attack or shots are fired, I will then report the incident to police if I'm able. These are not two different situations. They are the same, with different outcomes. The endgame is to stop the attack. If that is accomplished without firing a shot, great. The decision to face the consequences of my actions is made every time I leave the house.

Yes, I know that life or death decisions that have to be made in the blink of an eye are not really simple. That is why we train to assess and react skillfully and wisely. If that doesn't make you a little uncomfortable, you're not paying attention in my opinion.
 
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail" or something to that effect. Look at less lethal options to use before your carry weapon, it might end the confrontation or ,at least, buy you some time or "working room".
 
Which I understand. And Florida law is obviously different than NY. Personally? I'm never going to exit a vehicle. I'm not a cop. A CCW doesn't make me one. Period.

It makes me feel good seeing rationale like this. This type of thinking keeps gun owners out of trouble and out of the anti gunners spotlight.

Also yeah, altercation =/= justified use of deadly force. Even if you're not legally obligated to retreat... just get out of the situation. Might hurt your pride but hey, at least you won't screw up your life for shooting someone.

So this is in one of those weird brackets where you COULD have a legitimate fear for your life,
Never use "could" as justification to use or even draw your weapon. Could leads good guys straight to jail. Think more along the lines of "definitely".

And this is also bearing in mind that bearing a weapon or even stating that you are armed might be enough be considered an escalation.
There's no might here. It is in every way shape and form an escalation.
 
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I'll agree that "less lethal" options are something to be carefully considered. HOWEVER, DO NOT make the mistake of thinking anything that goes in a gun is not lethal. It is.

People have been killed by blanks! Ok, it takes just the right conditions, but it has happened.

Rubber bullets, and all the things that are sometimes called "less lethal" are really "Less likely to be lethal". They all can kill, when things go just "right" (or wrong, from the other point of view).

Another thing is the use of "deadly force", and how different places regard it. IF it comes out of a gun, the law may regard it as deadly force, no matter what it is.

OR, if it is "less lethal" ammo, you might find yourself in the legal can of worms that opens with "you chose "less lethal" ammo, because you didn't believe deadly force was justified"...and if you don't believe deadly force is justified, you are not justified in shooting, ...etc....

So your claim of self defense becomes charges against YOU for assault!

Stranger things have happened...
 
In 2013 (I think it was), I went to the NRA convention in Houston. While there, I attended a talk given by Rob Pincus, who said something that has always stuck with me. To paraphrase, because I cannot remember it accurately enough to quote: Don't ask, "can I shoot?" That's the wrong question. What you should ask is, "Do I have to shoot?"
 
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