Dragoon wedge won't stay put...

45 Dragoon: I am with you regarding proper fit of the arbor in the barrel lug.
Bottomed arbors are not an issue with my conversions because the base guns are Centaures. Their arbors are of the bottomed variety.
My problem was the tip of the wedge spring which eventually had this "rounded" shape (grade of the steel used?).
As it turned out the one that gave me troubles was not an original Belgian wedge but a replacement ... no offence meant.
Long Johns Wolf
 
No offence Bootsie, just didn't want you (or others) misled into thinking thats how the set up works with the Colt type guns. I'd like to see one of these Centaure rev. one of these days!!
 
45 Dragoon: 2 Centaure Regular New Model Armies as requested.
They have a lot of mileage, are the match pistols of the winner of the Open German Championship of the frontiersman class 2012 & 2013, Magic Joe.
Long Johns Wolf
 

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Wow! Great looking '60s Bootsie! Always a sucker for full flutes!!
Bet they'd be awsome with an action stop and bolt block!
They are both cut for a stock but don't have "4th" screw. Is that common with these?

Dont wont to high jack the thread so I'll say I'd like to install a stop and block and correct the arbor for Rigmarols Dragoon/Dragoons !! It would make for awesome coyboy shootin'!!
 
Dont' wish to highjack the thread either, 45 Dragoon.
13,000+ of the 16,000 Centaures totaly produced have the 3-screw frame with notches in the recoil shield. Incl. in these ca. 13,000 are some 600 with fluted cylinders/high gloss polish plus some 100 fluted cylinders/blue & case color finish.
The tuning done on this pair of Centaures was an exchange of the bolt/trigger leaf spring with a wire spring, lightening of the main spring & installation of beryllium nipples plus some internal polishing.
No hammer stop is installed.
Long Johns Wolf
 
Very cool. I like tuning the flat springs (you can tune the trig. spring and bolt spring independent of each other). In my experience, wires leave a lot of "feel" out and all of the crispness of the flats. Tuned flats will also last as long, if not longer, than wires. I changed the factory "tuning" (wires) back to flats in my El Patron Competition and folks can't believe how much better and lighter it is!! Anyway, a stop will go a long way in saving your hand and lock notches.

Works in DRAGOONS too lol!!!
 
Bootsie and 45Dragoon, no hijack in my opinion, more of that good info is great!

I'm going to try to take some pictures of what my problem is. I'm pretty clear on the solutions provided, but I'm thinking some pictures might be helpful later.

When I get home from work this evening I'll try to remember to do it.

BTW, my Dragoons and conversions are shot with black powder loads, no fillers or wads under 210gn "Big Lube" bullets. I'm not shooting factory modern powders just in case I misled anyone earlier when I talked about shooting with the conversions (Kirst by the way).

My replacement wedge was brand new and verified by the VTI rep on the phone to be the correct wedge for the Dragoon goes almost all the way into the frame before there is any friction!!! Not good in my opinion. This is what clued me in to the problem being in an elogated wedge slot in the arbor.

Like I said, I'll try to get some useful pictures up soon.
 
Thanks for the extra info.
Well, i only shoot smokeless (cause i've cleaned all the b.p. i care too. . . . . things change!!) Anyway, the shock from full house loads of smokeless is more severe than the push from bp and there lies my stance. You can shoot mine all day and nothing moves. Yours (with a more forgiving push) is moving. I think you are clearencing the arbor mis fit and that is why the wedge is at a point where it wont fit. If you remove all ability for there to be movement ( anywhere), there wont be any.
 
So, if you fix the short arbor length and stabilize it ( also setting and determining the barrel/cyl gap) you can reclaim the life of your wedge( yes the one that is too small now) and never need another one!
 
I just finished doing some very detailed measuring and came up with a few corrections and a surprise or two.

Regarding the short arbor assumptions we were all making (because Italian clones are all short right?) Although these were made in Italy, they were assembled and fitted in the US under whatever agreements were in place to produce the "Signature Series" Colt guns. I've always assumed my arbors would be like any other italian gun but they are both dead on. I'm sure someone could improve on them somehow but it would be well beyond me.

I took both guns removed the cylinders and put the barrels back on line up 90 degrees and set the barrels all the way down and even tapped on them with a mallet to be sure they were all the way down on the arbors. both guns bottomed out right at the frame with no bypass at all. I've read about measuring the short arbors this way but just never did it until this evening. So, I don't have short arbors it would seem.

On to the problem with the wedge - I found a surprise that may have just wasted a lot of time. My NEW wedge is narrower than the original wedge.

The original wedge fits perfectly fine. I replaced it only because it fell out twice and I din't want to loose it because it is a serial number part that matches the gun. I figured replacing it would take the pain out of losing one if it ever happened again.

The NEW ATI verified wedge is too dog-gone narrow for this gun.

I tried the same NEW wedge in my second Dragoon (also a Signature Series gun) and it doesn't go into the gun quite as far as the problem gun. But the notch on the spring is not against the frame as the original wedges are. So that tells me I do have some wear or deformation on the problem gun.

Shimming for the narrower wedges is probably going to be the simple fix.

Here are some pictures:

My New (edit) Walker (edit) and my brace of Colt's Signature Series Dragoons with Kirst Konverters:


I took the NEW wedge and the original wedge and clamped them tight spring to spring (the only way to get them tightly together for comparison) and found the original was .02 thicker where it mattered.






Here is the original wedge installed. It is tapped in snug (I didn't set the gap just snugged it in for comparison):


Here is the NEW ATI wedge. If I tapped it in too hard it actually bottoms out:


So, what I've come to is that the new wedges are not correct no matter what ATI told me.

The original wedge fits perfectly but I still have a mystery as to why it wants to jump outta the gun (I'm suspecting the spring as a possibility).

The retention screw in the frame is a full round with no flats and in no way touches the wedge, it is there to snag the spring so the wedge doesn't have to be removed completely to remove the barrel. Tightening the screw does nothing more than make the screw tighter.

The shim idea will probably work fine with the new wedge. I'm going to try it. I need to go to the hardware store to pick up some copper shim material and see what I can cobble together.

This way, if I ever need to go back to the original wedges (like when I ever sell it) I can remove the shim and be fine.
 
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With the set screw, you could use the new ones and save the orig. for later or, just use the orig. When you clean, you dont have any extra parts. Also, noticed you said you didn't set the gap. You dont set it, the arbor length does. The wedge isn't a gap setter, it just keeps the front attached to the back.
 
Yeah, I realize you don't set the gap, I meant I didn't "check" the gap which I do every time I put it back together. Sorry I misspoke.

Thanks.
 
Please excuse my reviving this old post.

"I put a set screw at the end of all my opentops arbors. This gives you an adjustable key hole for the wedge. Do you shoot your .45 conversion exclusively? If so, i have what i call a "captured wedge" fix. The wedge wil NOT be able to work out.

Works perfect in all my conversions.

45 Dragoon"


45 Dragoon,
Can you post some pictures of the "Captured Wedge Fix"? I shoot my opentops exclusively with a conversion cylinder and I have been downsizing both my loads and bullet weight in an effort to keep the wedge from deforming. The arbor appears to be the proper length, however even with 160 grain bullet it still shows an imprint of the arbor.


Thanks!
 
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